Author Topic: Work in Progress / 01  (Read 106762 times)

cmpbllsjc

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Re: Work in Progress / 01
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2010, 08:35:00 am »
Granted, I am ready for everyone to say "THIS DOESNT LOOK AS GOOD AS FSX!"... Thats just cuz your jealous of my FS2004 ;)

Nice pics Slade   ;D, From some of the vantage points you chose you made it hard to tell, especially with the editing.

With all due respect before you go nuts thinking I am dissing your screen shots, because i'm not, take those same sceneries you posted pics of, like the Kai Tak one, then take the same snap shot of it using the FSX version, re-edit them like you did in the FS9 pics and it will look even better, that's just the way it is. :-) There's no way to fake higher resolution, higher poly scenery/aircraft models, and more autogen per square area.

Now, i'm not saying your pics dont look good, because they do look good, they look great and your a master of editing with the extra photoshop enhancements, but you can only go so far with FS9 as far as texture resolution, etc. Umberto has been over all the things he can do extra in the FSX versions that he can't do in the FS9 versions due to FS9's limitations.

Take any of the FSDT airports, then take an "unedited" screen shot of it in FS9, then do the same for FSX. From experience I will say the FSX versions all look better since I have them installed in both sims. The same will most likely hold true for any scenery that is available for both sims. GEX is a good example for a "blanket" product that covers the whole US/Europe vs. GE Pro for FS9 that covers the whole world. I think it goes without saying that the higher res GEX textures look much better and sharper than the GE Pro ones do for FS9.

Sure FS9 can look good, especially in some areas, like the old KPDX by Vauchez, but I will wager that when the ORBX fellows finish the area it will look 10x better than what Vauchez put together 5 or 6 years ago.

The problem is, we can't fly in FS9 with it being photoshopped while we fly to make it look like your screen shots.  ;D If that were the case I might not have jumped ship to FSX so quick.

Thats just cuz your jealous of my FS2004 ;)

No way, sorry.

I think I made my point.

Frankly, the only point you made to me is that your sour because of the possibility FSDT might not be able to continue FS9 developement.

Hey, its understandable, no one here is knocking FS9, well maybe a little, but what I mean is that not everyone has the resources to upgrade their rig to FSX standards. If I were the position of having spent a boat load of money on FS9 stuff and didn't have the financial resources to upgrade my computer and repurchase all my addons, I too would probably be a little bummed if one of my favorite vendors said they maybe unable to produce products for my sim. Then again some people may have the resouces but for whatever reason dont want to switch, fair enough, but then you suffer the consequence of having your sim left behind at some point by some developers.

The thing is, nothing last forever. Just because vendors slowing might start making FSX only products doesn't mean that your FS9 is going to stop working. In fact, for FS9 there is so much content as far as a/c and sceneries available for it, plus all the freeware, if no one ever made another FS9 product for years you guys would still be sitting pretty. Granted some of the airports might be a little out of date as far as newer runways or terminals.

I'm sure 3 or 4 years from now, all of us FSX guys will be bellyaching also that some developers will not be able to continue to make FSX products because they are too hard to backport from the Flight version or whatever the new or hot sim is at the moment. If you think things are getting bad for FS9 now, just wait another 3 or 4 years and it will most likely be much worse.

Anways, since this is the "LAX Backdoor", lets get back to LAX and look forward to it.

Regards.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 11:46:09 am by cmpbllsjc »

Dimon

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Re: Work in Progress / 01
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2010, 02:00:46 pm »
Come on, it's pure VFR stuff. I have never tried to underestimated VFR power of FSX - it's pure beauty including ORBX. IFR large hubs + AI-traffic (that still uses FS2002 modeling standards) - it's completely different story. You should compare apples with apples - FSDT KJFK with full AI in FSX vs KJFK with full AI in FS2004. The same for EDDF, LFPG. The performance difference is just HUGE, with minimal visual and functional differences

This is taken from AVSIM Hardware Forum and it summarize mostly of what I have been trying to deliver all these years. Please pay attention to the guys's PC specs

Code: [Select]
What you need is to spend your money in a time machine... travel 50 years into the future... buy an extreme system... and go back in time... Posted Image
Even the latest 6 cores CPU from Intel can't deliver smooth FPS over detailed sceneries with all sliders to the right and running programs like REX 2 and Ultimate Traffic 2 at 100%... but... if you still want to upgrade your system spend extra cash to switch from an i5 system to an i7 system...
Let's hope that the new MS Flight solve all performance issues... Posted Image

Dexter...
My System:
Intel 980x @ 4.14GHz (133x31) | Asus P6T7 WS Supercomputer | 12GB Corsair Dominator 1600Mhz | 2 x XFX HD 5870 Crossfire | Intel 80GB X25M SSD | 2 x 300GB WD Velociraptor RAID 0 | 3 x 1TB WD Caviar Black | Asus Essence STX | Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1800 | Pioneer BDR-205 Blu-ray Burner | Antec TPQ-1000 TruePower Quattro 1000W | Canon MX850 | Logitech Z-5500 5.1 THX (Toslink Cable) | Logitech G940 Flight System | Logitech G27 Racing Wheel | Logitech Illuminated Keyboard | Logitech Performance Mouse MX | Cooler Master Cosmos 1000 | Hanns-G 28" HG281D | LG Flatron 23" E2350V | Sennheiser HD595 Headphone | Logitech G35 Surround Sound Headset | TrackIR 5 Head Tracker | Roccaforte Ultimate Game Desk | APC Back-UPS RS 1500 LCD | Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit.

Cooling (2 Loops):
Koolance MB-ASP6T7WS | 2 x Koolance VID-AR587 | Koolance CPU-360 Rev1.2 | 2 x Thermaltake SR-200 Liquid Reservoir + P500 Pump | 2 x Thermaltake TMG2 | 2 x AquaBay M4 | 4 x Cooler Master 120mm Red LED Fan | Antec SpotCool Fan | Thermaltake iTube 9 3/8" Tubing | Thermaltake Coolant.

Flight Simulator Gold Edition Software:
UTX USA, Europe, Canada, Alaska | Ground Environment X North America, Europe | REX 2.0 | FS Global 2010 | Ultimate Traffic II | SceneryTech Africa, Europe, South America, North America, Indo-Pacific, Asia | PMDG 747, MD11 | Wilco 737PIC, Airbus A380, Airbus Series 1 & 2, Embraer Regional Jets, Embraer E-Jets Series 1 & 2 | Flight1 C310R, Cessna Mustang, BN-2 Islander, Audio Environment, Airport Facilitator X, FS Panel Studio | Carenado C152 II, C172N, C182Q, C182 RG, C185F & Bush, C206G, C208B, PA28, PA28RT, PA34, PA32R, F33A, M20J | RealAir Duke B60, Scout Package 2007 | Captain Sim 757 (200,300,F), 767 (200, 300, F), C130 X-perience, 727 (100 ,200, F) | FlyTampa Maarten Complete | Fly The Maddog Pro 2010 | Cera Bell 412 | Lotus Albatros L-39 | Iris Diamond Twin Star | Nemeth Designs BO-105, EC-135, EC-120B, MD500E, MD902 | Aerosoft Twin Otter X, Discus Glider X | FSUIPC 4 | FS Force 2 | Aivlasoft Electronic Flight Bag | FS Commander | Navigraph nDAC 3 | TA Software Plan-G | Reality XP GNS 530 WAAS, GNS 430 WAAS, GNS WAAS Unlimited, Flightline T, Flightline N.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 03:13:17 pm by Dimon »
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virtuali

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Re: Work in Progress / 01
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2010, 03:57:22 pm »
IFR large hubs + AI-traffic (that still uses FS2002 modeling standards) - it's completely different story. You should compare apples with apples - FSDT KJFK with full AI in FSX vs KJFK with full AI in FS2004. The same for EDDF, LFPG. The performance difference is just HUGE, with minimal visual and functional differences

First screen is KJFK with WoAI at 100% under FS9 = 28.6 fps
Second screen is KJFK with UT2 at 100% under FSX = 26.1 fps

The fps difference is really nothing that would impact the scenery enjoyement, not to mention that 26 fps in FSX feels a lot smoother than 28 fps in FS9, because the texture loading distributed on several cores doesn't create much stuttering, and the fps is steadier, while in FS9 is constantly oscillating. And of course, FSX has more complex default scenery, and I purposely took the screenshots with the view oriented towards Manhattan so, FSX was way more penalized, in that spot.

Third and Fourth screen is the same test at KDFW. Again, the fps difference is not much, but the difference in visual quality in FSX IS huge at KDFW, since the FS9 version is entirely flat (FSX is full 3d terrain with elevated briges), the FS9 version doesn't have the animated skylink train and road traffic, there are no shaders on ground (they are difficult to see in FSX in a screenshot, you need to see them live), there are no custom animated vehicles in FS9, there are no animated jetways in FS9, and of course all the AI and the user airplane looks much better in FSX. I'm quite sure that, if we haven't used all those features in FSX and made an FSX version just like the FS9 one, KDFW might have been FASTER in FSX than FS9.

So no, the performance difference, even with big IFR hubs and full AI traffic (provided you use the right AI product, not something ported over from FS9), is not that big anymore on modern machines, at least not with OUR products, or when used together with other products which are really made for FSX and properly optimized.

Dimon

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Re: Work in Progress / 01
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2010, 04:46:00 pm »
Ok, I don't want to comment screens (I have a lot to say, but it's been said numerous amount of times already ;D) since they are waaaay.. subjectively presented, allow me to say that since I now how to show off a right angle with good FPS. ;D

The reality is that there is general consensus including both FS2004 and FSX experienced simmers that FSX performs much worse in IFR hardcore simmers environment that FS2004 and right amount of money to buy good PC is not the answer. Obviously there are several variation in FPS  between various airports (for example your KFLL or LSGG clearly performs better in terms of FPS than KORD or KDFW), but the trend is too evidential not in the favor of FSX.

Anyway, I still keep my fingers cross for FS2004 KLAX and I wish you all the best.

Thanks
Dmitriy
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SirIsaac726

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Re: Work in Progress / 01
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2010, 07:30:31 pm »
no one here is knocking FS9, well maybe a little,

I know this was never your point and I'm not trying to argue but I don't understand why anyone would knock FS9.  It was and actually still is a fantastic simulator provided you have some great addons, just like FSX.  Granted, on modern machines, FSX can do much more and I'd love to have a machine that can handle it at the level my computer can handle FS9 (although at this point I might just wait to see what Microsoft Flight brings) but that just isn't a reality for me...mostly because I hesitated to make a purchase on a new computer when FS9 worked so well for me and it did its job.

So, the same can be said for FSX...why would you knock it anymore?  I can understand people knocking it when it was first released because it really should have never been released like that if you ask me (even the higher end machine back then could really only handle low-medium settings and that just shouldn't be) but right now, FSX is a fantastic sim.  It grew into its time.

So basically, why knock either sim like some people here do?  You're just wasting your time. (Not you specifically cmpbllsjc...what you just said made me think of all this. :))

bkircher

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Re: Work in Progress / 01
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2010, 08:38:29 pm »
Man, Ive never seen so much division between one sim and another sim.

We all have to remember where we are in this situtation. We are the customers, not the deisngers. By my recgoning, the desigers have the final say in what is made and what isnt made, and what ever decison they make either side will just have to deal with it. Plain and simple.

Silverbird

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Re: Work in Progress / 01
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2010, 09:19:14 pm »
Umberto I forgot your system specs was it a Intel Q6600?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 09:39:39 pm by virtuali »
Cesar

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Re: Work in Progress / 01
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2010, 09:26:03 pm »
On the performance standpoint it's all hogwash. It all boils down to user system specs. And I doubt the majority of FSX users systems can fully take advange of what FSX can offer.

Even my system, doesn't partially take advantage of all the great enhancements of FSX with flyable framerates and I have pretty good specs. That is why I leave FSX to VFR flying. My only beef is not about FSX it's about the situation of affordable technology to FULLY take advantage of FSX without a hit on the frames.

Those screenshots dont mean anything. Anyone can max/lower the sliders for a simple screenshot. Then return them back to normal when it's time to fly.

Believe me, I could take very good screenshots in FSX. But i'd be lying if I wanted people to think it looks that good when I am flying.
I really wish people would stop comparing the two.

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« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 09:40:03 pm by virtuali »

virtuali

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Re: Work in Progress / 01
« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2010, 09:58:30 pm »
Those screenshots dont mean anything. Anyone can max/lower the sliders for a simple screenshot. Then return them back to normal when it's time to fly.

Please don't try to say I've cheated with settings: I've took the screenshots with the settings I always use in FSX, which are normal settings (not everything to the right), and in FS9 everything is maxed out. The spot is the same and the viewing position is about the same.  I only turned off boat traffic, which is not really needed in IFR (or is it ?). I could get higher fps in FSX with some tweaks, like reducing the Autogen density or the small part reject radius with the FSX.CFG parameters, but I've always keep it as the default setting, because this is how I test our stuff in FSX: it wouldn't make any sense to test something that we have to sell, on a heavily tweaked system. Yes, if I had to *fly* I guess I would add some tweaks but, for the purpose of taking a screenshot, the fps obtained in FSX were already more than enough.

It doesn't make any sense to use FSX with everything to the right, some times the visual quality might *worsen*, because the system can't cope with the load. THIS is what people don't want to understand: sometimes a lower setting might *increase* visual quality, because what the system needs in FSX to give good resolution without blurries, is TIME.

Instead, there *were* FS9 screenshots which were posted before, which were visibly Photoshopped (just like that OrbX video was very well color-graded, and probably recorded at twice the speed and then slowed down in editing, to magically double the fps...)

I couldn't care less in this example to point out different image quality, other than the one implied in the different modeling of the scenery, I simply took the screenshots as I normally use FSX or FS9. My FS9 doesn't have any other 3rd party addon installed and for some reasons I can't use antialiasing in Window mode, but adding lots of 3rd party enhancements and antialiasing to FS9, surely won't *increase* its performances.

As I've said, I wasn't interested to prove anything about image quality. It has been said that on KJFK with full AI traffic, the fps difference in favor of FS9 was "huge". I simply proved is not. It might be with other products, but not at KJFK or KDFW, which are the largest and most complex sceneries we made so far.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 10:04:47 pm by virtuali »

virtuali

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Re: Work in Progress / 01
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2010, 10:10:20 pm »
Umberto I forgot your system specs was it a Intel Q6600?

No, it's a MacPro with 2 Quad-Xeon at 2.66 Mhz, with a 512MB ATI 4870. It's not a very good gaming system, because FSX can't really use all 8 cores, the clock speed is not that great and it can't be easily overclocked.

It's a developer machine, can't reach record performances (well it can, but only with rendering and video encoding, which are both heavily parallelizable tasks) on games, but the 8 physical cores are great when you need to run, for example, the Visual Studio debugger together with FSX, without slowing down the system. Or run a whole virtualized Windows running inside OSX.

A gamers i7, perhaps over clocked and with a better video card, would probably get better results in FSX, and it would be much cheaper.

Silverbird

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Re: Work in Progress / 01
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2010, 10:39:33 pm »
Umberto I forgot your system specs was it a Intel Q6600?

No, it's a MacPro with 2 Quad-Xeon at 2.66 Mhz, with a 512MB ATI 4870. It's not a very good gaming system, because FSX can't really use all 8 cores, the clock speed is not that great and it can't be easily overclocked.

It's a developer machine, can't reach record performances (well it can, but only with rendering and video encoding, which are both heavily parallelizable tasks) on games, but the 8 physical cores are great when you need to run, for example, the Visual Studio debugger together with FSX, without slowing down the system. Or run a whole virtualized Windows running inside OSX.

A gamers i7, perhaps over clocked and with a better video card, would probably get better results in FSX, and it would be much cheaper.

Thanks Umberto my system is very low waiting hopefully to upgrade again need something cheap for now was surprised it was able to handle some things well considering its a Celeron but not your typical old one it does like a E5400 but unfortunately my cache is low so that is also other bottleneck.  my motherboard is a very bad bottle neck for me. but hope to get at least in I5 I7. I gotta admit your Quad-Xeon at 2.66 Mhz handles fsx and fs9 well.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 10:45:12 pm by Silverbird »
Cesar

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Re: Work in Progress / 01
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2010, 10:44:12 pm »
As for the screenshots, I was refering to the ones posted before not yours. I would not imply you would create settings for a simple screenshot. As for the shots you took, I have to be honest... they dont look that different to me... and the differences I did see... were minor to me.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 11:45:16 pm by virtuali »

cmpbllsjc

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Re: Work in Progress / 01
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2010, 12:17:06 am »
The reality is that there is general consensus including both FS2004 and FSX experienced simmers that FSX performs much worse in IFR hardcore simmers environment that FS2004 and right amount of money to buy good PC is not the answer. Obviously there are several variation in FPS  between various airports (for example your KFLL or LSGG clearly performs better in terms of FPS than KORD or KDFW), but the trend is too evidential not in the favor of FSX.

Dmitriy

How do you quantify or qualify what makes someone an "IFR hardcore simmer"?

Does hardore mean you need to have everything set to the max? Does hardcore mean always 100% AI? Or is it max cloud draw distance?

I always read in the forums that "hardcore IFR simmers" need 100% AI. Since when does IFR flying mean you need to have 100% AI? For me IFR has always meant Instrument Flight Rules not 100% AI, and IMC, to me means Instrument Meteorological Conditions which is basically flying on instruments since you can't see where your going by looking out the window.

Frankly, can anyone tell the difference between 100% AI and 90% AI at a large hub like JFK? Probably not. Beside the fact that most FS9 "IFR hardcore simmers" want to have AI sitting at every gate, which isn't really realistic anyway unless the said airport has had a weather delay and a bunch of flights just arrived and can't leave due to weather. Go to MSN maps and pull up the satellite view of KJFK which was taken during daylight hours and you will see that a lot of gates are empty, around 46 or so since I counted, and the airport looked to be at about 80% capacity.

The point I am trying to make with all this is that I am "IFR hardcore simmer" using FSX and have no problems using reasonable settings which are still higher than what FS9 provides at Max, but yet less than what FSX is capable of and I fly into all these large hubs flying by IFR rules and many times in IMC conditions and have no issues.

If you want to go into JFK with AI parked at each gate with a complex plane and everything set full right in FSX, then yes your right, there probably isn't a computer that will handle this. However if you want to go into the same airport with "realistic" levels of AI and settings that are higher than FS9 but less than max FSX, then most good computers running at greater than 2.85 ghz will get it done, I do it every day.

Sometimes I think FS9 and sometimes FSX "IFR hardcore simmers" are more into looking at AI and sight seeing at the hub after they land, than they are about actually simulating an IFR flight. After all professional flight sims used by airlines and flight academies to train REAL airline pilots don't even have AI, so would you consider them to be not "hardcore"? I doubt it.


I know this was never your point and I'm not trying to argue but I don't understand why anyone would knock FS9.  It was and actually still is a fantastic simulator provided you have some great addons, just like FSX.  Granted, on modern machines, FSX can do much more and I'd love to have a machine that can handle it at the level my computer can handle FS9 (although at this point I might just wait to see what Microsoft Flight brings) but that just isn't a reality for me...mostly because I hesitated to make a purchase on a new computer when FS9 worked so well for me and it did its job.

So, the same can be said for FSX...why would you knock it anymore?  I can understand people knocking it when it was first released because it really should have never been released like that if you ask me (even the higher end machine back then could really only handle low-medium settings and that just shouldn't be) but right now, FSX is a fantastic sim.  It grew into its time.

So basically, why knock either sim like some people here do?  You're just wasting your time. (Not you specifically cmpbllsjc...what you just said made me think of all this. :))

Yeah your right I wasn't trying to knock FS9, I was just responding to the guy who posted the edited FS9 pics. I was an FS9 guy for years prior to FSX and even for about a year after FSX came out, in fact I still have FS9 installed, I just dont use it because I prefer FSX now.

I whole heartly agree, that I wish people would quit knocking each sim and just enjoy what they have. Will it happen? I doubt it, the debate will linger on for sometime to come until we have at some point a sim that the majority of us all use. But, even then I am sure there will still be some FS9 guys who will stick with FS9 for another 4 years. Heck, there was even a fellow who posted in the FS9 section of Avsim the other day who is still on FS2002 believe it or not.


OKAY GUYS!  This isnt a debate forum.  This is to show us what the progress is on the scenery.  Granted, we all want different things, but hopefully we have all made our points, now its up to the developers, so lets just let the forum be what it needs to.


I agree, we've all had our say. Let's get back to LAX and stop arguing about the merits of our prefered sim. No one ever wins these arguments.

virtuali

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Re: Work in Progress / 01
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2010, 12:19:29 am »
As for the screenshots, I was refering to the ones posted before not yours. I would not imply you would create settings for a simple screenshot. As for the shots you took, I have to be honest... they dont look that different to me... and the differences I did see... were minor to me.

As I've said, I didn't really wanted to point out the image quality in FSX, it was just a performance remark.

Both FSX and FS9 are capable to create nice screenshots, but FSX offers many visual effects which need to be seen live (like shaders, wet runways, refractions) to be appreciated, because the whole point of those effect is how they react to the eyeposition or the sunlight.

virtuali

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Re: Work in Progress / 01
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2010, 12:22:16 am »
Guys, please stop the flame war, it's just pointless losing your time writing personal attacks, when you know they'll be inevitably removed...