Author Topic: Question about how KLAX scenery works  (Read 6860 times)

Denthibbe

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Question about how KLAX scenery works
« on: December 04, 2011, 10:53:10 pm »
Hello,

I bought the KDFW scenery and just realized (by reading some threads in the KDFW section) that in VC view unless I learn to do everything at zoom level 0.50-0.70 (which imho is quite ridiculous) I will have to miss out on textures of some parts of the scenery (notably ground texture, taxi lines and lights) as it was designed to work that way (if I understood correctly it is to save out on performance or something?).
So my question was, does the KLAX scenery work the same way, please? Just that I don't waste my money again.

I am owner of KJFK, KORD and LSZH and those are fantastic sceneries but KDFW was a real bummer to say the least.

Anyway thanks for any information.

Thibault Dosunmu

virtuali

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Re: Question about how KLAX scenery works
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2011, 11:40:08 pm »
So my question was, does the KLAX scenery work the same way, please? Just that I don't waste my money again.

Since all our sceneries are all sold in Trial version so, it's impossible to "waste your money", since you can test them before purchasing.

Denthibbe

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Re: Question about how KLAX scenery works
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2011, 06:28:35 pm »
Although having to look for all the random spots in a scenery where a rather strange visual zoom restriction might kick in (knowing that I have to restart the FS after every expired demo time) is not really my idea of what a demo should be meant for, if that's your only advise I will take it...

Can you at least give me a hint and tell me if yes or no the coding was made the same way as for KDFW? Or is that abusing your kindness?

Thank you in advance.

Thibault Dosunmu

virtuali

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Re: Question about how KLAX scenery works
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2011, 07:12:01 pm »
Although having to look for all the random spots in a scenery where a rather strange visual zoom restriction might kick in (knowing that I have to restart the FS after every expired demo time) is not really my idea of what a demo should be meant for, if that's your only advise I will take it...

That suggestion was obviously made considering your initial comment about KDFW that, according to your description, was "useless in VC view" so, if that were really the case, it should have apparent at a first sight, without any effort.

If testing the Trial for this could be annoying, because you have to *search* for places were things disappears at wide zoom levels (which is a more realistic description of what's really happening at KDFW), it doesn't really fit with the "useless in VC" and "waste of money" comments.

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Can you at least give me a hint and tell me if yes or no the coding was made the same way as for KDFW? Or is that abusing your kindness?

All our sceneries are coded for fps optimization, which means they have multiple LOD levels, as any optimized product should do.

The LOD levels ARE inherently linked to the zoom settings, the only way to be sure the scenery would be visible at every zoom level, would be simply removing LOD levels (which also mean working less at the scenery), which of course would be detrimental to performances.

So, we used the approach of taking what is universally considered the most realistic zoom level in FSX (which is somewhere between 0.70-0.75) and be sure the scenery is always visible in every place at that level. It's USUALLY visible in many places at wider settings, like 0.40-0.50, but that is not guaranteed, because we only tested it to be always visible at 0.70-0.75 and up.

If you find a place in a scenery were the highest details disappear at 0.70-075, by all means report it, because it's falling outside our design specs.

If you find intolerable that something might disappear at 0.40, then sorry, use the Trial to verify this, because it won't be "fixed", because there's nothing to fix, since it's made like that intentionally.

Denthibbe

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Re: Question about how KLAX scenery works
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2011, 08:59:40 pm »
That suggestion was obviously made considering your initial comment about KDFW that, according to your description, was "useless in VC view" so, if that were really the case, it should have apparent at a first sight, without any effort.

If testing the Trial for this could be annoying, because you have to *search* for places were things disappears at wide zoom levels (which is a more realistic description of what's really happening at KDFW), it doesn't really fit with the "useless in VC" and "waste of money" comments.

Listen, I am not discussing the fact that it's my own fault that I spent money on something that does not seem to live up to the expctations. That's not my point...
I did install the trial (of which I think it is great that you guys provide it) and I realize I should have spent more time testing it (like taking a ride on every possible taxyway, starting at every gate and landing on all runways), but the demo time being relatively short that would have taken me a couple of hours having to restart the FS everytime. I installed the demo, started at a gate with different planes and checked the different viewing angles along with the framerates I got and concluded it was looking good (at no time did I see disappearing textures). Far from me was the idea that there was a possibility that taxiing for about 50ft would completely change the visual aspect... now I know. Building up experience I guess...

All our sceneries are coded for fps optimization, which means they have multiple LOD levels, as any optimized product should do.

The LOD levels ARE inherently linked to the zoom settings, the only way to be sure the scenery would be visible at every zoom level, would be simply removing LOD levels (which also mean working less at the scenery), which of course would be detrimental to performances.

In the 3 other sceneries I own I have never ever had that kind of behavior, so all I wanted to say is that KDFW was kind of disappointing in that aspect (but as said before I do not consider that being your fault...)

So, we used the approach of taking what is universally considered the most realistic zoom level in FSX (which is somewhere between 0.70-0.75) and be sure the scenery is always visible in every place at that level.

Than I must be coming from another universe... 0.70 as default zoom level in VC view sounds quite unbelievable to me. I am conviced that some market research was done here, confirming that statement, so it must be just me...

If you find intolerable that something might disappear at 0.40, then sorry, use the Trial to verify this, because it won't be "fixed", because there's nothing to fix, since it's made like that intentionally.
Obviously yes I do, that's why I posted the initial question in the first place.
As said in my previous post I will then follow your advise of installing the trial and get on with the search...

Thank you for your time

Thibault Dosunmu
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 09:03:08 pm by Denthibbe »

virtuali

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Re: Question about how KLAX scenery works
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2011, 10:01:55 pm »
I installed the demo, started at a gate with different planes and checked the different viewing angles along with the framerates I got and concluded it was looking good (at no time did I see disappearing textures). Far from me was the idea that there was a possibility that taxiing for about 50ft would completely change the visual aspect... now I know. Building up experience I guess...

That's exactly my point: if it was something that made the scenery "useless", to quote your term, it would have appeared immediately without any effort.

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In the 3 other sceneries I own I have never ever had that kind of behavior, so all I wanted to say is that KDFW was kind of disappointing in that aspect (but as said before I do not consider that being your fault...)

All the other sceneries are exactly like that, regarding to 3d objects. What KDFW has on top of that, is that the LOD optimization extends ALSO to the ground lines. And yes, KLAX is the same, however numbers, distances and objects are entirely different, so even the results might be different. Which means, it's best to try.

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Than I must be coming from another universe... 0.70 as default zoom level in VC view sounds quite unbelievable to me. I am conviced that some market research was done here, confirming that statement, so it must be just me...

I suggest you to do some research too, before using this kind definitive sentences like "another universe." No, it's not a market research, is purely based in technical reasons. Here's some articles to backup this claim:

http://www.calclassic.com/sci_tutorial/index.html

A shorter version, more relevant to FSX:

http://www.calclassic.com/propliner_tutorial_fsx.htm

But, in any case, that 0.70-0.75 is the most realistic zoom setting for VC view in FSX, is very well known.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 10:04:12 pm by virtuali »

Highiron

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Re: Question about how KLAX scenery works
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2011, 03:05:56 am »
The problem with your example Umberto, is that all the information you have used for your defense is based on 2D panels, not the VC that 90% of us use today. 2D panels do not scale to zoom settings, VC's do.

I am 100% behind the fact that 0.75 presents the most realistic view but is impractical to use within the Virtual Cockpit environment. In reality when I fly, I can simple make a quick eye glance down to get necessary instrument information when taking off or landing, something not possible within the VC without panning down the view, something I never do as it's a sure way to crash on short final. Because of the peripheral view limitations within the VC, we are forced to "pull back" the focal point. For the majority of us depending on the aircraft this can vary between 0.30 and 0.50, on this Thibault is correct. One simply can not conduct a proper approach with a 0.75 zoom setting within the VC, too much vital information is not available. In the 2D panel environment the zoom setting is irrelevant to visual access to the instrumentation.

The LOD limitation does not make the products "useless", but does make them more difficult during certain visibility conditions and night operations. I have already once gone off the taxiway at KLAX because I lost the centre line and taxiway edge lights at night. I can assure you, this has never happened to me in real life.  :D

I am in agreement with Thibault that it is problematic and very undesirable within the VC, but it won't stop me from using or purchasing your products as the default material can not remotely compare. When it comes to taxiway/runway markings and lights, would it not be meeting those of us users of VC's half way by providing the LOD option "on" or "off" for markings and lights during the install process? The default use of LOD for all else within the airports is fine by me as is.
Cheers,
Cpt. Thad Wheeler


virtuali

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Re: Question about how KLAX scenery works
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2011, 10:29:11 am »
The problem with your example Umberto, is that all the information you have used for your defense is based on 2D panels, not the VC that 90% of us use today. 2D panels do not scale to zoom settings, VC's do.

If you read that explanation carefully, it discussed several things: BOTH the harmonization between 2d and VC views, which is one thing, but also discusses what is the most correct zoom view in relationship to what gives the most correct perception of speed/height, and this is the same, whether you use 2D or VC. The two goes together, but you should start with a correct 3d image first, which is achieved at around 0.75 zoom.

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I am 100% behind the fact that 0.75 presents the most realistic view

That's was a given...

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but is impractical to use within the Virtual Cockpit environment. In reality when I fly, I can simple make a quick eye glance down to get necessary instrument information when taking off or landing, something not possible within the VC without panning down the view, something I never do as it's a sure way to crash on short final.

First, there's common agreement that in order to *really* use the VC, you should use an head tracking device, which allows you to peek instruments and then switch to scenery immediately and very easily. Zooming out to an unrealistic wide zoom setting will alter your perception of 3d, particularly on final approach.

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For the majority of us depending on the aircraft this can vary between 0.30 and 0.50, on this Thibault is correct. One simply can not conduct a proper approach with a 0.75 zoom setting within the VC, too much vital information is not available.

As I've said, the proper way to fly in VC, is to use a realistic zoom level, and an head tracking device, not using the wrong zoom level to make up for it. If you really fly 100% in VC, you should use a tracking device anyway, to access button/and switches on the VC.

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The LOD limitation does not make the products "useless", but does make them more difficult during certain visibility conditions and night operations. I have already once gone off the taxiway at KLAX because I lost the centre line and taxiway edge lights at night. I can assure you, this has never happened to me in real life.

But that's not the point. The point is you are making relates to final approach phases, the issue we are discussing relates to the ground lines, which comes into play only when taxiing.

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When it comes to taxiway/runway markings and lights, would it not be meeting those of us users of VC's half way by providing the LOD option "on" or "off" for markings and lights during the install process? The default use of LOD for all else within the airports is fine by me as is.

No, it can't be an switchable option, because LODs are hard coded in the models at compile time, and we can't control them in real-time so, in order to change that option, it will have to change for anyone, forcing the performance loss to everybody, even those that fly with the correct zoom setting.

As I've said, the scenery is designed to be always visible at 0.70 but, IN MOST OF THE PLACES, it CAN be seen at much wider settings, like 0.50 and even 0.40, we ONLY tried to be *sure* it never disappear at 0.70, but that doesn't mean you can't use it on wider settings, it's just that we haven't tested it like that.

And, since this is something related to the PIXEL size of the object, it ALSO depend on the resolution you are using, those running at lower res like 1280x720 or so, will probably see it worse than those with 1900x1200.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 10:32:52 am by virtuali »