GSX+P3DV4+QW787 Refueling Issue

[mseder]

"Of course there is. It's in the Airplane customization page, the exact wording is "Show the FSX Fuel and Cargo page"

And of course it's NOT, see the image. I assume you're referring to "Show FSX "Fuel and cargo dialog" during refueling"
It's ticked so from your logic I assume, that option is set, which wasn't that surprising after all the information you received so far of GSX being involved in the refueling of my 787, right?

"A developer-made GSX.CFG in the airplane folder will take precedence over the GSX internal configuration. Maybe QW is supplying with a GSX.CFG with the option enabled ?"
Yes that is the case!

One of the parameters in that file tells refueling = 1 which I guess could be interesting in this case.
So are you now saying that with this knowledge, the random and unpredictable behavior from GSX side is Quality wings problem or?

Is there a way to solve this basic problem I've stressed for a year? A parameter that could be changed, a fix that can be done or something that creates stability in the GSX behaviour?

[virtuali]

And of course it's NOT, see the image. I assume you're referring to "Show FSX "Fuel and cargo dialog" during refueling"

And OF COURSE it is, right in your screenshot!! It's enabled, when it shouldn't, but the option is clearly there, as I said it would.

It's ticked so from your logic I assume, that option is set, which wasn't that surprising after all the information you received so far of GSX being involved in the refueling of my 787, right?

That's what I was saying all along: that airplane is not supposed to have that option set because, like most 3rd party airplanes, we flagged it to NOT use GSX for refueling.

Yes that is the case!

Of course it is. GSX is made to be customizable, which means our internal settings always take a lower preference over either a developer-supplied file, or an user-made customization. If it didn't do that ( = our internal settings always taking precedence ), it wouldn't be much "customizable".

]One of the parameters in that file tells refueling = 1 which I guess could be interesting in this case.

Yes, that's the option enabled.

So are you now saying that with this knowledge, the random and unpredictable behavior from GSX side is Quality wings problem or?

Never said it's their fault. The option is enabled by default when you create a new configuration from scratch. It's likely they made it when developing the airplane so, BEFORE we created an internal configuration for the 787 ourselves so, that option stayed enabled, and still is, because ( due the priority system ), the developer-made .CFG file will always take precedence.

There's nothing "random" or "unpredictable" here. If that option is enabled, which should usually only be for default airplanes or 3rd party ( like freeway ) planes with 100% standard fuel system and no custom loader/fueler panels, it's entirely normal you'll see issues, because the plane own loader would likely conflict with GSX doing the refueling. That's why that option exists.

Is there a way to solve this basic problem I've stressed for a year? A parameter that could be changed, a fix that can be done or something that creates stability in the GSX behaviour?

If you are still asking this, after all these explanations, it means you still haven't fully understood how GSX works WHEN THE AIRPLANE REFUEL ITSELF, which is the case for 3rd party planes when that option is set correctly.

Have you even tried DISABLING it, as it should ? The refueling process will work very differently then, you won't see the GSX dialog asking for fuel but, instead, a request from GSX to use the airplane own refueling method ( which can be a loader app or panel or an FMC option ). This is of course explained in the GSX manual, Page 18, the chapter named "Airplane with custom fuel systems"

[Fragtality]

Have you even tried DISABLING it, as it should ? The refueling process will work very differently then, you won't see the GSX dialog asking for fuel but, instead, a request from GSX to use the airplane own refueling method ( which can be a loader app or panel or an FMC option ). This is of course explained in the GSX manual, Page 18, the chapter named "Airplane with custom fuel systems"

Could you share with us what is in the internal DB - what does GSX send/read from QualityWings then? I'm just aware of the EFB which just instantly loads the Plane and does not have any Lvars which could allow to read the Fuel Quantity from there. There's also nothing much "Custom" with 787 - it uses the Standard Offsets/Variables for Center, Left, Right Main Tank. Which I use to load the Plane via my Tool without Problems (the EICAS is showing everything correctly). Since that is a "custom refueling system" I of course disabled this option^^

[mseder]

"And OF COURSE it is, right in your screenshot!!"

What? You told me that the exact words are:
"Show the FSX Fuel and Cargo page" but the truth, which is proved by my image says
"Show FSX "Fuel and cargo dialog" during refueling".
You do see the difference but pretend something else right! I guess you feel embarrassed

Regarding the GSX.CFG and if it's provided by QW or not:
"Of course it is." Of course it is!! But in the previous post you speculated perhaps/maybe that was the case and now when I present the facts it turned out as "Of course it is", come on Umberto.

" it's entirely normal you'll see issues, because the plane own loader would likely conflict with GSX doing the refueling."
And here comes the bug creeping.

Your suggestion "as it should" is to turn off custom refueling for the 787 by ticking off that in the plane's configuration having GSX do nothing other than to ask the user to use the planes refueling system. That's not a solution, it's an escape Umberto.

Now, the manual states on page 18:
"GSX can handle both cases" and it's referring to 3rd party Custom fuel systems 1 With a progressive fueling and 2 With NO progressive refueling. Also in the GSX settings panel this can be combined with enabling the "Always Refuel Progressively".

The 787 belongs to the first category (Custom + Progressive) but GSX obviously can't handle it without running into problems, already described a year ago! The bug that you explain as "the plane's own loader would likely conflict with GSX doing the refueling". or as you put it "WHEN THE AIRPLANE REFUEL ITSELF". But...there is no loading of fuel happening in the 787! You can load the aircraft's fuel by instantly load it in the EFB, nothing else (Already mentioned by "Fragtality"). There is no basis for a conflict other than GSX itself!!

Your logic is flaw, it's not based on reality, you're making assumptions that is wrong trying to get away with that, and your standard comment "You don't understand how it works" please stop doing that, it doesn't serve the customers, FSDT or yourself.

Below everyone can find my recommendations for QW787 refueling with GSX 2

1 In the plane config
Enable "Fuel and cargo dialog" during refueling"

2 In the GSX Settings
Enable "Always refuel progressevely"
Disable "Detect custom aircraft system refueling"

With the above settings the below will happen after you request Refueling
1 Fuel truck arrives
2 A GSX window will offer a list of fuel amounts that you can choose from
3 THe tanks are filled progressivily, you can watch the FUEL amount increasing in the 787, very nice!
4 Refueling completed and the truck leaves
5 OR... if the fuel amount you asked for is not completed (one truck can't have it all)
6 GSX tells Another fuel truck is on its way
7 Truck nr 2 arrives and completes the refueling (hopefully, please try and get back)

Mats

[virtuali]

Could you share with us what is in the internal DB - what does GSX send/read from QualityWings then?

I think I already explained it, quite clearly, there's a PRIORITY system so:

- Our internal database has the QW-787 set to NOT use the GSX fuel system

- The GSX.CFG files supplied by QW has re-set the option to USE the GSX fuel system. Because of the priority system, this option "wins"

- YOU, as the user, have the ability to change it again, using the Airplane configuration window so, if you disabled it, GSX will NOT Refuel the plane. Your own customizations always "win" against everything.

Also, the Airplane configuration page IS telling all the data sources available to GSX for that airplane, and it's listing them in priority order: the one down on the list are the ones with an higher priority.

[virtuali]

"And OF COURSE it is, right in your screenshot!!"

What? You told me that the exact words are:
"Show the FSX Fuel and Cargo page" but the truth, which is proved by my image says
"Show FSX "Fuel and cargo dialog" during refueling".
You do see the difference but pretend something else right! I guess you feel embarrassed

And you call THAT a "difference" ?

It's the SAME, what difference does it make how that label is called ? What matters is the option IS there, and what it does. I might used the older name just because I copied it from the GSX manual, but the actual wording have been updated but, it should have been obvious we are discussing about THAT option, regardless how the exact wording is.

"Of course it is." Of course it is!! But in the previous post you speculated perhaps/maybe that was the case and now when I present the facts it turned out as "Of course it is", come on Umberto.

I really don't know what you are trying to say here with that "come on". I couldn't possibly know what exact files QW might have included or not in their product so, at first, I was obviously correct saying they MIGHT have done that IF you saw the GSX fuel page appearing.

Now that YOU confirmed you found a GSX.CFG file with that option enabled, I also correctly said "of course it is", to point out the reason of that behaviour was entirely expected, considering that file exists.

Your suggestion "as it should" is to turn off custom refueling for the 787 by ticking off that in the plane's configuration having GSX do nothing other than to ask the user to use the planes refueling system. That's not a solution, it's an escape Umberto.

It's not an "escape" or a "bug", it's the proper solution that works for every 3rd party airplane that has a way (or different ways ) to load fuel by itself which are not through the default sim Fuel panel.

Now, the manual states on page 18:
"GSX can handle both cases" and it's referring to 3rd party Custom fuel systems 1 With a progressive fueling and 2 With NO progressive refueling. Also in the GSX settings panel this can be combined with enabling the "Always Refuel Progressively".

]

You are now confusing the progressive/non-progressive refueling ( which are subsets of the "GSX NOT refueling " case ), with the main "GSX is not refueling" option, which makes that option irrelevant if GSX refuels the plane.

The bug that you explain as "the plane's own loader would likely conflict with GSX doing the refueling". or as you put it "WHEN THE AIRPLANE REFUEL ITSELF". But...there is no loading of fuel happening in the 787! You can load the aircraft's fuel by instantly load it in the EFB, nothing else (Already mentioned by "Fragtality"). There is no basis for a conflict other than GSX itself!!

This confirms you confuse the progressive loading of fuel, with the fact the airplane it's refueling itself. At least, we meant two different things.

When I say "The airplane is refueling itself", I mean EVERY possible way of loading fuel in the airplane EXCEPT GSX OR the default Fuel page of the sim.

It doesn't matter if the plane loads progressively, if it has a custom fuel panel, a loader, an FMC option, or you use a 3rd party utility, or you have a "Load instant" option in the airplane.

Those are ALL cases of "the Airplane refueling itself" and that's why it's best to Disable the option to use GSX refueling in all these cases, not because GSX might not able to refuel that airplane ( it might, if it uses standard fuel tanks, but some airplanes don't ), but because it might disrupt other workflows you might prefer to use for that airplane so, GSX would JUST play its animations, not trying to interfere with an refueling external system.

Another very good reason why it's best to Disable GSX refueling with complex 3rd party airplanes is that, when GSX is refueling the airplane, it will follow its own strategy of progressively filling the various fuel tanks so, at the end of the refueling, you might end up with the correct overall total quantity you requested, but the DISTRIBUTION of fuel in all the multiple fuel tanks might not always be the correct one for THAT particular airplane, because of so many issues with W&B we don't even want to enter into, that are very specific to each plane, and that's why it's best to use the airplane own's systems, that are likely tailored for that airplane, and use GSX for the visual effect only.

Below everyone can find my recommendations for QW787 refueling with GSX 2

1 In the plane config
Enable "Fuel and cargo dialog" during refueling"

If the plane has a custom refuel system, the option should be DISABLED, which is how GSX is set to by default, for this airplane, in the configuration WE supply GSX with.

Enable "Always refuel progressively"

This won't make any difference if GSX is refueling the airplane because...GSX is refueling the airplane so, clearly, it's doing it progressively!

Enabling this option is ONLY useful when GSX is NOT refueling either the airplane doesn't have a progressive refueling, so it always refuel instantly, or it has both methods ( progressive or instant ), but you want the GSX truck to stay there AS IF the plane was refueling progressively.

Disable "Detect custom aircraft system refueling"

If you had this enabled, THIS is likely caused all your issues.

This option should only be used in very rare situations, like planes that do refueling AS PART of an overall "turnaround simulation" and what it does, is to automatically call a Fuel truck in case GSX detects the airplane fuel quantity starts to raise, the only reason to exists is in these cases, since it's not very clear exactly WHEN the airplane will start refueling, it would be a problem when combined with the normal workflow of GSX ( when is NOT refueling the airplane!! ) would just ASK you "Please use the airplane fuel system", because that might already happened, since it was part of an automatic timed routine started by the airplane.

[Fragtality]

@umberto:
It doesn't make sense to disable the "..show Dialog..." Option (based on what is visible and documented to us users from both parties). If disabled (and "...detect custom..." enabled in the global config) nothing happens - the truck arrives and stays there forever. It may or may not make the "refuel sound" (depending on when I "instant-load" via the QW's EFB).
Which is all more or less "working as expected": GSX is configured to not do the actual refuel and QW just does not have or do anything custom with refueling (that I would be aware of) - it only can do a "instant load" via its EFB. It's the bog-standard fuel-definitions in the aircraft.cfg for Main Left, Right, Center Tank. So the correct Setting (imho) is to leave that "..show Dialog..." option enabled in the Aircraft Customization Dialog!

And, might just have found a bug: when the aircraft is customized (so that there is a user-customization file created in the appdata folder) - for example when disabling the "...show dialog..." Option - the "Indication Light Test Switch" is permanently on when the 787 is loaded (with coldanddark as default panel state). Saw in the QW Forum that this Bug should have been fixed? The Problem even persists when the user-customization file is deleted again.


@mseder:
Might sound a bit harsh: maybe concentrate on the original issue you had? Discussing the wording of an option doesn't get anyone further. Your original issue was that the Truck stopped after 79000 lbs, if I'm right?
If just tested it myself, I requested 100% in the Dialog and got a completely filled plane (with one Truck-Trip, since it was on a Gate with Underground Fuel). Be aware that QW uses a different Quantity-to-Weight Ratio than FS (and therefor GSX?)! Example: the 5570 gallons configured for a wing tank in the aircraft.cfg translate in FS/the Dialog to to ~37314lbs. But for the EFB this translates to ~38433lbs. So 100% in the Dialog is not the same amount as 100% in the EFB (and therefore also could lead to getting not the amount requested when defined as weight)! I had fixed that myself in the aircraft.cfg, which I did the test with. But despite these conversion-difference, it should not stop at 79000lbs - let's concentrate on that! Ever tried it with Gate/Parking with Underground Fuel?
Else I don't see any other way for you to get that sorted out, since ignoring the fuel truck & instant-load via EFB or trying a "community solution" are both somehow not an option.

[virtuali]

So the correct Setting (imho) is to leave that "..show Dialog..." option enabled in the Aircraft Customization Dialog!

So the whole argument is moot since, as we discovered, QW is providing with a GSX.CFG that enables it. We tend to always disable it for complex 3rd party airplanes, because we ARE NOT SURE what ELSE their fuel system might do so, it's just a safety precaution to have it disabled in the internal GSX configuration.

If QW set it to enable it, that's fine too, they know the airplane and probably don't mind GSX might distribute the fuel in its own way, which might be or not correct for a 787, I really don't know, GSX always use the same distribution, regardless of the airplane type.

And, might just have found a bug: when the aircraft is customized (so that there is a user-customization file created in the appdata folder) - for example when disabling the "...show dialog..." Option - the "Indication Light Test Switch" is permanently on when the 787 is loaded (with coldanddark as default panel state). Saw in the QW Forum that this Bug should have been fixed?

The mere presence of an user customization cannot possibly affect the airplane state ( with the obvious exception of GSX refueling or not ), the only possible reason of issues between what are usually internal L: variables in the airplane, is an user customization that changed the XML expression that use custom L: variables for the doors to other variables.

The Problem even persists when the user-customization file is deleted again.

Even after restarting the sim ?

[Fragtality]

The mere presence of an user customization cannot possibly affect the airplane state ( with the obvious exception of GSX refueling or not ), the only possible reason of issues between what are usually internal L: variables in the airplane, is an user customization that changed the XML expression that use custom L: variables for the doors to other variables.

Written from the QW Vice President back in 2021:
"We have reached out to FSDT and they confirmed that it was indeed caused by GSX and has already been fixed as soon as it got reported to them.
Please make sure you have the very latest GSX version in case you're still experiencing the issue."
So it is an effect which could relate to GSX I'm puzzled too how that can be, but it is ^^ Just disabled the "...show Dialog..." Option (because I indeed have a custom fuel system for the QW) and didn't change anything else. On the Variant which I not customized yet, it does not happen.

Even after restarting the sim ?

Sure! Closed P3D, deleted the File/whole Folder for the Variant in AppData, Opened P3D again.
Thats my todays use of Prepar3D - closing and opening it continiously

[virtuali]

Written from the QW Vice President back in 2021:
"We have reached out to FSDT and they confirmed that it was indeed caused by GSX and has already been fixed as soon as it got reported to them.
Please make sure you have the very latest GSX version in case you're still experiencing the issue." So it is an effect which could relate to GSX

Now I understand what it was.

And no, it wasn't really caused by GSX itself, it was an update to the Addon Manager that in previous versions discarded L: variables with an index of 0, which is in fact a valid index, so we released an update the considered 0 to be usable but, it caused a side effect that, depending on TIMING where the various applications AND the airplane, all using L: variables started, could result in the Addon Manager considering the index 0 to be usable, before the airplane, which could otherwise use it for itself, finished loading.

And yes, this has been fixed months ago, couple of days after it was reported so, the only possible reason it's still happening to you, is that you still have that outdated version for some reason ( antivirus can possibly cause this, since the Addon Manager it's a .DLL, so it CAN mistakenly blocked by the antivirus ).

And no, it's not that I'm just saying "it's fixed".

I tested it now, and made a video to show nothing you do in the GSX airplane customization page will ever affect the Light Test Switch, which always behave correctly, that is working normally when there is power, and not doing anything in Cold & Dark.

[Fragtality]

... the only possible reason it's still happening to you, is that you still have that outdated version for some reason ( antivirus can possibly cause this, since the Addon Manager it's a .DLL, so it CAN mistakenly blocked by the antivirus ).

I would rule that out!
If it wasn't the latest Version, the just added Support for the Chocks would not work, or would it?
Also, all Program/Addon Folders for P3D (including the AppData\Virtuali) are excluded in the AV. GSX was updated with "run as admin" and when the Sim is running, I generally disable the AV all together.

I tested it now, and made a video to show nothing you do in the GSX airplane customization page will ever affect the Light Test Switch, which always behave correctly, that is working normally when there is power, and not doing anything in Cold & Dark.

You did not restart the Sim 
It is not an immediate Effect - disabling the "..show dialog.." Option did not immediately trigger it. The next time I started the Sim and loaded the 787 it was triggered - the Plane starts right out with all Lights on. Sorry I did not make the clear enough.


Maybe it would be a good Idea to split this Discussion off in a new Topic?

[mseder]

Fragtality

"maybe concentrate on the original issue you had?"
I've done that all the time actually, this unpredictical behavior I've been returning to is exactly about that, the fueling that stopped at 79000 lbs and the 2:nd truck that does nothing instead of completing it.

"with one Truck-Trip, since it was on a Gate with Underground Fuel"
So then. my case was not tested. Well I assume that the functionality should work for any situation.

I'm fully aware of the different units and mass/liquid amount factors. Thank you!



Umberto

"At least, we meant two different things. When I say "The airplane is refueling itself", I mean EVERY possible way of loading fuel in the airplane EXCEPT GSX OR the default Fuel page of the sim. It doesn't matter if the plane loads progressively, if it has a custom fuel panel, a loader, an FMC option, or you use a 3rd party utility, or you have a "Load instant" option in the airplane."

Thanks for clearing that out.

"If the plane has a custom refuel system, the option (Plane config: "Fuel and cargo dialog" during refueling") should be DISABLED, which is how GSX is set to by default, for this airplane, in the configuration WE supply GSX with."

In this case, for the 787 and for my scenario (multiple refueling) to work it definitely cannot be disabled!

"If you had this (GSX Settings: "Detect custom aircraft system refueling") enabled, THIS is likely caused all your issues."
Then this might be the cause for the uncompleted GSX refueling. I just turned if off and will keep it off and hopefully the issue is solved!

My checklist for having the QW787  work together with GSX in "full mode" (se functionality-list below),  which now been tested several time, still should be:

1 In the plane config
Enable "Fuel and cargo dialog" during refueling"

2 In the GSX Settings
Enable "Always refuel progressively"
Disable "Detect custom aircraft system refueling"

With the above settings the below will happen after you request Refueling
1 Fuel truck arrives
2 A GSX window will offer a list of fuel amounts that you can choose from
3 The tanks are filled progressively, you can watch the FUEL amount increasing in the 787, very nice!
4 Refueling completed and the truck leaves
5 OR... if the fuel amount you asked for is not completed (one truck can't have it all)
6 GSX tells Another fuel truck is on its way
7 Truck nr 2 arrives and completes the refueling (hopefully, please try and get back)

Mats

[virtuali]

In this case, for the 787 and for my scenario (multiple refueling) to work it definitely cannot be disabled!

Sorry, but that's not the case, you just can't say "cannot disabled", because disabling it would JUST make GSX NOT refueling the airplane so, saying you "cannot disable it", it's like saying you have no way to refuel the plane without GSX, which clearly doesn't make any sense.

We might argue, instead, if it CAN be ENABLED, that's something that can be discussed. If the airplane doesn't have extra internal systems that are related to the fuel process, doesn't use custom fuel tanks, and you don't mind having a fuel distribution decided by GSX, then yes, that option CAN likely be Enabled.

But it's impossible to say you have a situation in which you "cannot" DISABLE it. When it's disabled, the only difference is that, when the Fuel Truck is in position, INSTEAD of the question from GSX about how much fuel you want you'll just see a message saying "Please use the refueling system of your aircraft to refuel", so you know when it's the right time to use it, to work with the GSX process.

As soon GSX detects a fuel increase, it will start its own fuel counter animation, which will:

- Follow the airplane progressively ( if the airplane is loading fuel progressively ) OR if the option "Always enable Progressive refuel" is enabled in GSX

- Be instant ( not really instant, but very fast ), if the airplane loaded the fuel instantly AND the option "Always enable Progressive refuel" is Disabled in GSX.

The only things than can go possibly wrong when the option is disabled are:

- You acted on the Fuel quantity ( by any means ) *after* you called the GSX Fuel Truck but *before* seeing the message "Please use the refueling system of your aircraft to refuel". That's why there's a message to begin with: to prevent you from doing exactly that, which will obviously confuse GSX.

- If the airplane refuels progressively, it might stopped/paused its refueling for any reason, before it reached the requested amount. Maybe the refueling process might have continued but, GSX can't possibly know that so, it needs to know when the airplane is done refueling and the way it does, is to constantly monitor fuel increases, considering the refueling to have stopped if the fuel stops increasing for I think more than 5 seconds.

But please note that, when I say "things can go wrong", when the option to have GSX refueling the airplane is Disabled, NOTHING really went "wrong" because...it's the AIRPLANE refueling itself, so the *actual* refueling process is working exactly AS IF you had NO GSX installed! The only issue would eventually having the GSX refueling process out of sync, possibly not ending but, again, it's not a real issue because, even if it happens, you can simply choose the "Restart Couatl", which as explained on the manual is like a Panic button to unstuck GSX from whatever unexpected situation might happen.

That's why you can't really say "I cannot Disable the GSX refueling", because it's the 100% safe choice, it puts the GSX refueling in a "dumb" slave mode, with the airplane totally in control of everything related to refueling.

[mseder]

Please Umberto, you're repeating yourself.

The functionality that I've posted will never work if you disable the 787.
You might define and explain functionalities the way you want, but it has nothing to do with THIS CASE.

"As soon GSX detects a fuel increase, it will start its own fuel counter animation,"
That animation is not interesting in this case!

"The only things than can go possibly wrong when the option is disabled are"
Did anyone here ask for what can goes wrong if the possibilities to reach my scenario already is turned off? Don't you see, it's then already "wrong".

Mats

[virtuali]

The functionality that I've posted will never work if you disable the 787. You might define and explain functionalities the way you want, but it has nothing to do with THIS CASE.

Are you referring to THIS sentence of yours, explaining your issue ?

I've done that all the time actually, this unpredictical behavior I've been returning to is exactly about that, the fueling that stopped at 79000 lbs and the 2:nd truck that does nothing instead of completing it.

Key sentence here is "fueling that stopped".

How you can possibly say "fueling that stopped" being a GSX "issue", when GSX IS NOT REFUELING THE AIRPLANE, when the option is Disabled, leading to your assumption you "cannot disabled it" ?

You MIGHT have had a point, if the "fuel stopped" problem happened with the option Enabled. THAT'S when GSX is in charge of refueling so, if it stops, IT IS a GSX's problem, but the opposite can't be.

By saying the option "cannot be Disabled", you are saying the only way to prevent the refueling to stop ( if this was your issue ), is to NOT let the airplane refueling itself. It's like saying GSX is better at refueling the airplane, than the airplane is without GSX.