Author Topic: [V4] Vibrating VC 777 Pushback  (Read 4637 times)

asegm08

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[V4] Vibrating VC 777 Pushback
« on: June 28, 2017, 03:56:23 am »
I have just installed a fresh copy of V4. Deleted all of my V4 folders before reinstalling the hotfix. I downloaded a fresh .exe from FSDT.com to reinstall everything from FSDT because I was having dynamic lighting performance issues. It appears I have cured my lighting issues but now I have an even weirder problem.

When I am pushing back, I have only tested the PMDG 777. I am getting a vibrating problem in the VC. I can see it vibrate, not like a low rider up and down but an actual vibration as if someone was stuttering because your freezing. A very small but noticeable vibration.

I am not seeing my any issues with the axis as I only have them on FSUIPC and I made sure to delete them in the P3D Axis assignments. I also noticed that if I press the brakes the shacking goes away. Its also not noticeable from the exterior only the VC.



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Alcides Segovia
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virtuali

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Adrijan

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Re: [V4] Vibrating VC 777 Pushback
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2017, 03:17:05 pm »
Pretty bad solution.
It removes the, in my opinion, good momentum effect, also it works only on the default VC camera and no other cameras (I often use the F/O camera too).

This hasn't happened before in P3D V3, even though the momentum effect was turned on.

virtuali

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Re: [V4] Vibrating VC 777 Pushback
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2017, 10:23:20 am »
Pretty bad solution.

There's nothing we can do from our side to fix this and, of course, it only happens with PMDG planes.

I think this is caused by the plane still controlling the rudder while being pushback. In the real world, the bypass pin is inserted in the front gear, which will prevent the plane system from controlling the wheel while the plane is pushed.

So, to really fix this, PMDG should modify the plane code and stop doing that, while the plane is pushed, like a real world bypass pin would do.

GSX has a public variable, which is documented at Page 45 of the GSX manual in the "Interfacing with GSX" chapter, that developers can check to know if GSX is pushing, so they can adapt their internal simulation to do whatever they could do in their code when an external vehicle is pushing. This is something that can work for a quick fix, and doesn't require any assistance from us, since the variable is already there.

In addition to that, GSX supports an even more precise method to support a simulation of the bypass pin, which is used by the FS Labs A320, where GSX will know even the extents of the steering wheel animation, so it will move the front gear exactly as the original airplane simulation would, for a 100% visual match between the animation when the airplane or the GSX truck controlling the steering.

We contacted PMDG explaining how this system works almost 2 years ago, but they don't seem to be interested in using it.

Adrijan

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Re: [V4] Vibrating VC 777 Pushback
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2017, 11:39:26 pm »
Let me attempt to explain how the phenomenon happens in hopes of it being better understood.

Basically, once the pushback starts initially there are no vibrations. The vibrations start to occur once the pushback accelerates to maximum speed, and they are present during straight portions and during turns.
If brakes are depressed, even on just one side by a tiny amount, the vibrations instantly stop.

virtuali

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Re: [V4] Vibrating VC 777 Pushback
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2017, 11:28:54 am »
If brakes are depressed, even on just one side by a tiny amount, the vibrations instantly stop.

This clearly indicates that some kind of non-standard simulation is happening in the code of the airplane.

That's the whole point of GSX having a published variable that every developer (without the need of any further help from us) can check: to know if GSX is pushing, and temporarily disable any kind of additional simulation they might have in place, to prevent any unwanted effects while GSX is pushing. Only the airplane developer can possibly know what they have added to the default dynamics, and what they should turn off when pushed by an external force.

This first approach doesn't require any help or cooperation from us: they only have to read the variable we published in our manual. PMDG also got a couple of free copies of GSX, while we were discussing this.

The 2nd approach of the simulated bypass pin, it's just an even more realistic option, which would be needed only to be sure that GSX will match perfectly the deflection range of the nose wheel steering (which might not be the same for every airplane) even when GSX is pushing and even if the airplane developer used a custom variable to simulate the NWS.  This would require a bit of communication with us, and it also has been explained to PMDG, but it's not really required to at least prevent the most glaring issues, which is the cockpit vibrations.

We already have every possible system in place to allow airplane developers to play nice with GSX, they just need to use them.

Adrijan

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Re: [V4] Vibrating VC 777 Pushback
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2017, 01:35:25 pm »
I have started a ticket with PMDG about the issue, and as expected, we have the usual finger-pointing from both sides, where they say that FSDT is at fault and did not comply with their SDK which is required for things to work properly.

In the end of course, the customer is the one who is at loss.

virtuali

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Re: [V4] Vibrating VC 777 Pushback
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2017, 06:13:09 pm »
I have started a ticket with PMDG about the issue, and as expected, we have the usual finger-pointing from both sides, where they say that FSDT is at fault and did not comply with their SDK which is required for things to work properly.

As I've said, PMDG knows exactly what they should do, and we discussed with them privately several times, and they promised this would being taken care of. In fact, they even publicly said they would after the 747 release. But at a certain point, they just seemed to have lost interest in this, regardless of the fact we supplied them with every possible information and they seemed interested fixing this.

What you are looking at, is something in their code which is probably fighting against the rudder position set by GSX when the plane is being pushed so, whatever they are doing it, it should be momentarily stopped if the plane is pushed by an external force. Just like a real bypass pin would do.

I fail to see how we could stop something that is happening entirely inside their code, which happens only with their plane, and could be fixed way more easily by them (which surely must know what the plane is doing), if they simply checked the variable which tells when GSX starts and when GSX ends pushing and, while that variable is set, temporarily stop that system from fighting against GSX to control the plane.

Generally, we try NOT TO interfere with any airplane system from GSX, and we always stick to 100% compliant SDK methods (the official SDK), and we know perfectly well that, acting on the airplane systems might not be safe, which is why GSX doesn't try to open doors automatically, because we cannot possibly know if we might screw up with custom systems (electrical, hydraulic) that might be related to them, or why GSX doesn't try to change the fuel quantity on an airplane with a custom fuel system, because we might cause issues to planes using custom fuel simulations.

And, I believe PMDG has always been the first to suggest you shouldn't use anything else than their own gauges/utilities to control the airplane systems so, it's very strange that, in this case, they would suggest we should do something *from* GSX, to stop their code and prevent vibrations somehow. It's obviously way safer if THEY do it, since they will surely know of every possible problems, since it's their code.

Quote
In the end of course, the customer is the one who is at loss.

Yes, the PMDG customer, since the problem happens only with THAT plane.

It seems that FS Labs is more interested in their customers, since they implemented the bypass pin simulation to have the A320 working perfectly with GSX, and this clearly prove our willingness to cooperate with airplane developers.

In fact, the whole idea of having GSX support a bypass pin simulation came out from a cooperation between us and FS Labs so, PMDG could have used the same system. I wonder if they don't want to use it, just because it was already used by their competitor.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 06:19:34 pm by virtuali »