More about PMDG B737-900

[crauds]

Hi Umberto!
     I read your suggested GSX.cfg fix for the door issues and I will implement them directly.  There is another issue with the model, however.  That is that it is longer than B737-800 and Marshaller stops it forward of the "footprint" so the Jetway won't function.  I verified this from the AFCAD.  My test airport was WBSB Gate S2.  Per our previous discussion a week or so ago I am fixing the footprints for all the gates for each destination airport as I fly to them.  This footprint was fixed so that if aircraft were correctly placed on the footprint the jetway as well as the T would be spot on.  (I have modified T's to 40-56-76).  In this case the position of the aircraft as stopped by the Marshaller had almost run him over and the AFCAD showed the position of the B737-900 to be forward of the footprint.

So... my assumption is that GSX is treating the aircraft as though it is much shorter.  This could also be a problem with pushback truck.  I have not verified this, however.  Is it possible to also use the GSX.cfg to also correct this?

Of course it would be way easier if the model (as well as its cousins, PMDG B737-600/B737-700) were just added to the database and I am sure that is what you intend to do.  These models represent the most comprehensive simulation (along with ConcordeX) currently available and are the models of choice for the growing number of those seeking realism.

Craig

[crauds]

UPDATE:
     Implemented the GSX.cfg file next to my aircraft.cfg in my B737-900WL directory as you recommended.  The test using S2 gate at WBSB default FSX AFCAD.  Started test sequence with DEBOARDING.  This time it did not call for cargo doors to be opened, only 1Left so config was working.  After deboarding finished I received text message:  "Passengers deboarded.  Baggage unloading in progress."  The conveyors were in position.  Trains had already left and I am unable to proceed further since program apparently thinks that baggage is still being unloaded.

Bottom line:  it seems not to be awareness of the door exits that are causing it to freeze-up at this point.  Must be something more sinister!  If you have access to the PMDG model for the -800 you must also have access to the -900 since they are both in the same package.  Hopefully you can work out a fix or expedite the addition of this model to the database.  In the meantime GSX is unworkable for this popular model.  Thanks, Umberto.

Craig

[virtuali]

If you have access to the PMDG model for the -800 you must also have access to the -900 since they are both in the same package. 

That's was my mistake: I must have confused it with something else because, the 737-900 IS recognized by GSX already, I have it both in my FSX install and in the GSX internal database it's set up correctly, since the original GSX release...

However, now I've made the same test you did, PMDG 737-900 WL, no GSX.CFG, default WBSB, Gate S2, asked for Deboarding, and everything worked normally, deboarding completed just fine.

[crauds]

Well that is indeed strange because I am only having problems with that model.  It will not recognize when deboarding has completed and so the message:  "Passengers deboarded.  Baggage unloading in progress"  never changes.  It just locks there and never comes back with acknowledgemnet of completion.  Because of this I cannot select the next function unless I do a GSX reset.

Now if I reset and then start from Catering and proceed through Refueling-Passenger loading and then Pushback, it allows this but will not remove the rear conveyor truck so I end up pushing "through" it.  Also it does not pull the rear stairs far enough to the left to allow the wing to pass without striiking it.

Please note now, this is the PMDG B737-900 WITH WINGLETS that we are having issues with.  The standard PMDG B737-900 has no liveries so I don't use it.  Are you sure your tests are with the same model?  The last test in the above posts:  WBSB Gate S2.  Also there is the issue of marshaller directing parking too far forward of the AFCAD footprint.

The PMDG B737-800 and the B737-800 w/winglets both work perfectly whether started from "deboarding" , "refueling", or "catering".  All functions complete and are acknowledged as such so I am able to select the next process without problem.  The vehicles back away and at a sufficient distance to allow pushback.  I just completed a test with Level-D B763 and everything also works excellently with that model.


Craig

[virtuali]

Please note now, this is the PMDG B737-900 WITH WINGLETS that we are having issues with.  The standard PMDG B737-900 has no liveries so I don't use it.  Are you sure your tests are with the same model?  The last test in the above posts:  WBSB Gate S2

I'm testing with the one with Winglets, and there's no difference at all, they both work fine. It's not even possible there might be a difference, since both models are indicated as the same in the GSX database.

Have you changed the GSX timings for boarding/deboarding ? If yes, what are you settings ?

[crauds]

Never thought of that.  Good catch!

 I have been tinkering with them a bit.  Currently have set 1.2 sec/passenger for deboarding, 1.8 sec/passenger for boarding, and .025 set/gal for fuel (thought fueling seems to be timing just right-not an issue). 

There are others as reported in this forum, however, having the same problem with the -900.  No one has reported positive experience with that model so far except you.  There is a 4 page thread on this very issue for several other models also and I noticed that you have been active in that thread but with no resolution to the issue.


Craig

[virtuali]

I have been tinkering with them a bit.  Currently have set 1.2 sec/passenger for deboarding, 1.8 sec/passenger for boarding

I have 1.0 for deboarding and 2.0 for boarding so no, this can't be a problem, because they are very similar.

and .025 set/gal for fuel (thought fueling seems to be timing just right-not an issue).  

This, instead, looks strange: are you *sure* it's 0.25 ? The default it's 0.0022 so, you set it about 12 times slower!

There are others as reported in this forum, however, having the same problem with the -900.  No one has reported positive experience with that model so far except you.  There is a 4 page thread on this very issue for several other models also and I noticed that you have been active in that thread but with no resolution to the issue.

Nothing in that thread suggest there's something specific with the -900 model, some users reported it with default airplanes too but, since nobody else is still posting now so, it's likely some of them didn't applied the post 1.3 fix.

Before the last live update fix, I had it too, with any airplane, if selecting catering first. After the fix, I can't reproduce it in any way with any airplane.

[crauds]

This, instead, looks strange: are you *sure* it's 0.25 ? The default it's 0.0022 so, you set it about 12 times slower!

It's set to 0.025 and this seems to provide closer to time for similar fills I can remember from RW.  But, still not a contributing issue, I'm sure.

Nothing in that thread suggest there's something specific with the -900 model, some users reported it with default airplanes too but, since nobody else is still posting now so, it's likely some of them didn't applied the post 1.3 fix.

Actually the 900 is one of the aircraft mentioned and in another thread similar, it was one that was listed as not working in GSX.  The problem is still existing for many of us with other models, also.  If you check, you will find that thread is very much alive!

On another point:  I don't remember having the problem before 1.3 BUT I think I just tested the -800 and assumed that if it worked so would the -900.  Before the update and the quick fix, the baggage loading would always announce that it had finished after a very short time and the wait was always for the passenger boarding/unboarding.  A couple of forum users mentioned that this was unrealistic and I agree since I usually had to wait for baggage/cargo loading to complete before I could finish final load checks.  So now that you have this new message that comes on after boarding/unboarding stating that baggage loading/unloading still in progress I am thrilled that it represents closer to reality but usually within a minute or two another message comes up stating the boarding/unboarding has completed.   Maybe I just didn't wait long enough for the -900. 

In your tests how long has the delay been?  I guess it would depend on your payload, wouldn't it?  I will try one more time at the same airport and gate (I assume you tested at the same position to eliminate that as a factor).  I will just wait for up to 5 minutes to see if it responds. 

But remember there is still the issue of the rear conveyor not moving out even after pushback begins and the fact that marshaller is stopping plane beyond the AFCAD footprint as though GSX is not recognizing the correct length of the aircraft.


Craig

[virtuali]

The problem is still existing for many of us with other models, also.

Which just proves my point that it's not specific to the 737-900.

If you check, you will find that thread is very much alive!

I've checked, and it has been several hours nobody has posted anything new during the whole day, after my last post suggesting to be sure to install the Live update fix.

In your tests how long has the delay been?  I guess it would depend on your payload, wouldn't it?  I will try one more time at the same airport and gate (I assume you tested at the same position to eliminate that as a factor).  I will just wait for up to 5 minutes to see if it responds. 

I've tried with airplane empty, airplane full, and random cargo, the waiting time changes as expected, the number of wagons in the baggage train changes too, everything works normally.

[crauds]

The delay I refer to is between the message "deboarding completed.  Baggage unloading in progress" and the final message that says "deboarding complete" after which I can select the next sequence.  In your tests are you experiencing a big (several minutes) time lag between these messages.  For me it just stops at the first message.  What in your program triggers the end of the baggage unload.  The trains come and leave long before passenger deboarding has even completed so that is not the issue.  I also have never seen anything but 3 carts in any train no matter what the load.

I am concerned that maybe I do not have the correct version installed.  I just looked and nothing shows as version 1.3.  My control panel lists as GSX1.2.1.  The Couatl.exe shows version 2.0.0.2303 and when I redownloaded the setup_addonmanagerX from your product page it is version 2.9.0.1.  I thought I upgraded on the same day you released it and then later added the new fix.  I just received notice of another fix that was available even though I have not seen it mentioned.  I also applied that one (while still in FSX).  I then tried my -900 again but still stuck at "...Baggage unloading in progress" point.

Craig

[virtuali]

The delay I refer to is between the message "deboarding completed.  Baggage unloading in progress" and the final message that says "deboarding complete" after which I can select the next sequence.  In your tests are you experiencing a big (several minutes) time lag between these messages

None at all. When I say "everything is normal", I mean it. The "Deboarding completed" message arrives as soon as the last baggage train leaves the airplane.

What in your program triggers the end of the baggage unload

It's just too complex to explain it in a post, and it would't have any meaning for someone that doesn't have access to the source code but, be sure we have already checked all the possible situations.

The trains come and leave long before passenger deboarding has even completed so that is not the issue.  I also have never seen anything but 3 carts in any train no matter what the load.

I can only confirm the number or carts is depending on the load. I see 1 cart with the PMDG 737-900 set to "empty" and 3 carts when set to "full", and it changes randomly when set to "random".

I just looked and nothing shows as version 1.3.  My control panel lists as GSX1.2.1.

If you update using the Stand-Alone Addon Manager, the version number in the Control Panel will not change, but the program will be update just the same.

If you want to "see" 1.3, you should download the full GSX installer, but that won't change which files are being installed, since the program code is downloaded online anyway by all installers.

[crauds]

None at all. When I say "everything is normal", I mean it. The "Deboarding completed" message arrives as soon as the last baggage train leaves the airplane.

Now I am confused.  The baggage unloading usually starts before or at the same time as passenger unloading and it usually completes in a minute or so and the trains leave but the passenger deboarding takes several minutes and only completes some time after baggage has long been unloaded.  That is what is confusing.  Why am I then getting message that "deboarding completed.  Baggage unloading in progress."  It is visually not in progress any longer by the time this message appears.  I never receive "deboarding completed" message alone which I do with other aircraft.

Now before you responded, I completely uninstalled and reinstalled the full current download and then after loading up FSX, I requested the update that was showing as available.  Still having same problem with the -900.  So I went back and loaded -800 which always worked before but now IT has same problem.  I have VISTA 64 but the account protection is off.  I install and load everything as "administrator".  I have checked all files/data and they have all permissions allowed.  The only variable in my tests versus yours may be that I have Ultimate Traffic 2 enabled, but can't see why all of sudden this should be a factor when none of this was a problem in your original release.  BTW, I didn't mean to pry into your source code, I was only asking you to look at what GSX waits for before it removes the "Baggage unloading(or loading) in progress" dialogue.  Whatever variable it checks before sending the second "Passenger deboarding (or boarding) completed" text apparently is not reflecting that baggage handling has completed.  I have no other programs running concurrent with FSX SP2 and I did not use a weather engine when I have been conducting these tests.  I don't know what else to tell you.  I have again reinstalled and will give it one last try and then will have to go back to your original before update since that seemed to work but of course I will miss the improvements of the upgrade.


BTW, Umberto, no one can fault you on your diligence in customer service.  You have spent all day working with me on this and I am indeed grateful.  I only wish that the problem could have been resolved by now.  If you can think of anything that could be affecting its proformance on my machine please let me know.  I am willing to do what it takes.  Thanks again.


Craig

[virtuali]

The baggage unloading usually starts before or at the same time as passenger unloading and it usually completes in a minute or so and the trains leave but the passenger deboarding takes several minutes and only completes some time after baggage has long been unloaded

Is not so simple.

First, it depends on your timings. You said you had deboarding set at 1.2 and boarding at 1.8, which (as the GSX setting page will tell you), translates into 2 minutes to deboard 100 passengers and 3 minutes to board.

But that time starts only from the moment the passengers starts to deboard/board which means, if you are parked on an apron, there's the time for the passenger bus to arrive to take into account.

And, if you take your time and don't open the passenger door immediately, that time will be added too.

And of course, if you wait to open cargo doors, that time will be added to the total time needed to handle baggage instead.

So, it's not so certain which one (passengers or baggage) will finish first, because it depends by many factors.

The loading time for baggage, instead, is not affected by those settings, because what is being affected by the number or passengers is, instead, the number of *carts*.

Just made a test with your settings (1.2 secs per passenger on deboarding), on the most favorable case for loading passenger, which means a parking with a jetway, opening the passenger door as soone as requested, with an half-empty airplane (6/12 people in first class, 86/162 in coach), I had two loaders with 3 carts each, and they finished loading baggage before passengers deboarded, but passengers ended deboarding only about 1 minute later.

[crauds]

OK.  I follow you.  But when the deboarding or boarding ends do you receive a "baggage unloading (or loading) still in progress" message or are you just receiving the "deboarding (or boarding) completed" message?  I keep getting "baggage ... still in progress" but everything has already completed! 

In a test with payload empty the message made sense because passenger time was very small and front loader was still receiving baggage after passenger process completed so it was indeed still IN PROGRESS.  And this time, once the front train drove away, I immediately received the "deboarding completed" message which would have allowed me to continue to next process.   I tried it with half payload as you did but baggage unloading  (3 carts each) ended way before passenger deboarding but after it finally completed I still got "Baggage unloading in process" and it just stayed that way.  I left computer on and about 30 minutes later checked again and that was still the text showing at point #1.  I tried to select Catering but it said it was waiting on processes to complete.  Stuck again.  I started my left engine and immediately I received message "deboarding completed".  So what ever is hanging it up is released when engine is started.  Hope some of this might provide a hint as to what is going on, Umberto. 

As I mentioned before in one of my posts, it seems the program polls some internal variable, waiting until it has a particular value before it allows the boarding/deboarding to register as completed.  That is something you and the development team must have added in the upgrade since I had no lockups in the initial release version.  In that version baggage and passengers completed independently.  I will try disengaging UT2 before my next test but others have said they are using it without any problems.  Again, it did not cause any conflicts with the initial release version of GSX even at the busiest airports using any of my complex simulation models.

[virtuali]

We found the problem (it was obvious, when I was finally able to replicate it, as I've said in another message), it was related to the combination of parking on a very small area, and either moving the airplane from the center, or simply not parking in the center, this triggered a problem oif the rear loader being already out of the parking radius as soon as it started loading, so it transmitted an "I'm out of the parking" message, when nobody was expecting it, which made the boarding process stuck.