Greenie Board Possibilities?

[SpazSinbad]

Sludge, my earlier post has been amended. Apologies for URLs confusion.  
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Yes for 'pitching decks at night' perhaps caused by high natural wind and carrier not able to do much about it for operational reasons (go slowly for example) then raising the glideslope will give more 'hook to ramp' clearance but then these and other factors being discussed come into play. The LSO knows all with his/her reference material to get it sorted.

We need a 'go to' LSO/Hornet Pilot to contact on these issues I reckon.  

[Sludge]

Spaz...

Well, looking at this Y/T of Hornets at night, it looks like they put the ball at 4.0 for hook-to-ramp clearance.  The wind over deck is high, goes from 33-to-39, and he stays in the high 140s, even some 150s.  Look at the rate of decent on the right side of the PLAT.  Looks like 10 (10=-1000k rate of descent) is the average there?

(go to 3:00, and start)

We do have a "go to" Hornet pilot, the guy JIMI knows. Wish I woulda got that other fellas' number or email last year when I went to the airshow... he was a CAG LSO on top of that.  Missed opportunities.

Later
Sludge

[SpazSinbad]

Wasn't prepared for that.... Glad he survived and I gather no others injured?

On first look to me it seems the aircraft is high all the way - not good - I can tell ya about that.   I can post a clip later about the dangers of being 'high all the way - coming down at the ramp - for a ramp strike'.

The numbers could mean that the pilot was also fast? I'm not so familiar with looking at PLAT tapes (never had any). I'll look again later - gotta get some grub....

[SpazSinbad]

Don't have sound on this computer to know what LSO is saying in the first colour clip above before rampstrike. Attached is 'old advice' - always relevant - nothing changes - about 'Being High all the way etc.' video clip. The small .WMV clip cannot be uploaded unless it becomes a .ZIP. When unzipped it will be an .WMV....

More similar advice can be found at other spots on the internet, for example embedded in this PDF:

'DeckLandingInstructionVideos.PDF' 90Mb

http://www.gamefront.com/files/17349862
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In the signature below my posts there are some URLs. This one has a 50Mb edited version of the one above. Look in the 'My Documents' folder for "DeckLandingInstructionVideosED.pdf":

http://cid-cbcd63d6340707e6.skydrive.live.com/home.aspx?sa=822839791

BTW there is now a 90Mb .WMV video in same place with an example of the 'Mission 4 & 5' Dusk/Night FCLP FSX Mission Test Videos - oh the horror.... ; "Mission4&5hornetFSXsludgeFCLPdemo.WMV"

[SpazSinbad]

fsxnp asked about LSO answering pilot ball call: "Do we need the vLSO to specify WOD direction? I mean when real LSOs say 'Roger ball', they also add something like '30 knots' and sometimes 'port' or whatever. This obviously means that there's WOD of 30 knits from the port side."

Unfortunately I cannot 'listen' to any videos at moment but I do not recall any LSOs saying anything about wind but I don't deny that they may do so on a carrier. Are the videos where this happens at a carrier or ashore?

Anyway a quick look at a recent LSO NATOPS does not suggest that the wind has to be called. Usually communication is at a minimum with only perhaps CarQual being a wordy time for the LSO (or night or emergencies but these 'out of the ordinary' so to speak). My guess if the wind direction is called then it will be because it is at or near the limit for crosswind for a carrier landing. Ideally the wind should be down the angle deck centreline so nothing to say except perhaps the wind strength if once again it is stronger than is usual perhaps.

Pilots fly the ball and do what it takes to stay there. Maybe later they will find out why they had to do what they did to stay 'on the ball'. I would say just have the LSO say 'Roger Ball'. The mission will have the same wind all the time unless the pilot changes it - then he will know what the change is (if it is possible to change the wind).

[Sludge]

SPAZ...

You really need to get sound on your computer setup.  According to Paddles comms the guy wasnt "high all the way", it was "on glideslope" several times, including at the "ball call".  So thats my point... real world videos keep showing things like this, but you still go back to these references that we know about but arent pertaining.  Do you get what Im saying that REAL WORLD and FSX dont meet up and thats why the "Approach Speed" document solves that problem for me?  I mean you can reference documents all you want but in the end we have several resources that have verified the approach speeds get higher than the NATOPS charts when WoD component gets above minimums.

I mean... just putting these out to keep arguing for what?  I know in NORMAL conditions trending too high is bad, but during this video its quite obvious that trending a little high is GOOD when you take the two possibilities: trending on-G/S to LOW (wire catch or RAMP STRIKE), trending HIGH to on-G/S (bolter or wire catch).  With a pitching deck at night, I'm pretty sure they'd rather have High to On-G/S, which gives room for more error, do you agree? So more than likely (we dont know), is that Paddles set the Meatball glideslope higher (4.0), that it would give more Hook-to-Deck clearance.

Seriously, whats the point you're making?

Later
Sludge

[Paddles]

Ok guys,
Just some WIP pictures. As you can see, there's an on-screen text message that appears when passing through the Start position, making ball call and during other crucial events like waveoff or bolter... This text can be easily switched on/off, as you need.

Well, the first message 'calls' the ball for you - there's side number, AC, ball and fuel state 
The second message just repeats what you'll hear - a real LSO's voice saying 'Roger ball', and shows WOD as well.
The last picture shows a debrief window (of a boltered approach) where you can see both in the groove time and WOD. Notice that WOD here is not rounded and thus more precise.

FYI. CVN speed was 16 kts, BRC 151.3, wind 345.8 degrees, 22 kts. So, some basic computations give us 37.6 kts, or roughly 38 kts. 

[SpazSinbad]

Sludge, surely we are discussing these issues. Yes I agree that FSX modelling and real world Hornet flight parameters are not the same and some kludges in FSX may need to be made. However I'll make this point. Unless you have flown the Hornet how would you know about these issues other than numbers? I have flown A-4 examples that purport to be 'on the numbers' but they flew totally unlike any A-4 I have flown. So about the Hornet I'm guessing we are both in a similar situation.

If documents are all we have then that is the situation.

About the rampstrike video you posted. Not being able to hear the video is a problem I'll acknowledge. Nothing can be done easily about that due my particular circumstances at moment.

The LSO will guide the pilot in bad situations to help get the aircraft onboard safely. I don't know if the situation is really bad or not. General advice about 'being high all the way' 'coming down at the ramp' for a rampstrike is valid as the old but still pertinent video advice tells. The basics remain the same, however as mentioned the LSO can prompt a particular course of action. AFAIK in a really bad 'deck moving situation' the LSO will go to the MOVLAS to 'trick' the pilot into flying a particular glideslope even though the pilot will see that aircraft is 'on the ball' if flown accurately.

Perhaps we have misunderstandings about what you are doing to the Hornet because that is not what I do myself. I think you nailed the required effect at the beginning with the manual flap fix. All the rest about the numbers being matched is your prerogative of course. I don't see how I'm being argumentative though. Disagree - yes - though it is not personal. You are free to do modifications as you please I'm certain of it. 

[nicka117]

Ok guys,
Just some WIP pictures. As you can see, there's an on-screen text message that appears when passing through the Start position, making ball call and during other crucial events like waveoff or bolter... This text can be easily switched on/off, as you need.

Well, the first message 'calls' the ball for you - there's side number, AC, ball and fuel state 
The second message just repeats what you'll hear - a real LSO's voice saying 'Roger ball', and shows WOD as well.
The last picture shows a debrief window (of a boltered approach) where you can see both in the groove time and WOD. Notice that WOD here is not rounded and thus more precise.

FYI. CVN speed was 16 kts, BRC 151.3, wind 345.8 degrees, 22 kts. So, some basic computations give us 37.6 kts, or roughly 38 kts. 

Hey FSXNP, it looks OUTSTANDING. Will there be actual audio or just text messages? I assume just text except for the generic "calls" in that you couldn't have a wav file for every possible fuel state. On the other hand, it would be cool to be able make a wav file for the basic "ball" call with my own voice to replace the generic one.

[wilycoyote4]

WOW !!!

Spaz---
hit the nail on the head, FSX just isn't real, you might say, lol, gotta do the best we can, keep on trying

[Sludge]

SPAZ...

Without a doubt, Im just asking where you are going with this.  Im looking at it from the FSX vs. real-world perspective and thats why I brought up the approach speed issue.  I havent flown the Hornet and everyone knows that but when the numbers on Y/T videos dont match with what the FSX (NATOPS-backed) approach speeds show, then I start to wonder and tweak.  Initially, when I changed to ALL Auto-Flaps, I thought that was the answer.  However, I was hasty in that regard.  Now that I have tweaked the .AIR file flaps "virtual lift" and made the LEF (leading edge flaps) AUTO and the TEF (trailing edge flaps) MANUAL, I'm pretty happy as I get in the low 140s consistently yet have never come close to going over 146 (high limit approach speed; LSO Guide).

The LSO will guide the pilot in bad situations to help get the aircraft onboard safely. I don't know if the situation is really bad or not. General advice about 'being high all the way' 'coming down at the ramp' for a rampstrike is valid as the old but still pertinent video advice tells. The basics remain the same, however as mentioned the LSO can prompt a particular course of action. AFAIK in a really bad 'deck moving situation' the LSO will go to the MOVLAS to 'trick' the pilot into flying a particular glideslope even though the pilot will see that aircraft is 'on the ball' if flown accurately.

Again, you're bringing this up because...?

We dont have an LSO, we will only have a vLSO if Serge's program works well.  Additionally in FSX, there is NO MOVLAS, we are stuck with a 4.0 Ball and higher than normal Wind-over-Deck conditions due to higher ball.  The 1991 document gave me the "validation" needed to keep the LEF at AUTO (AoA driven) and the TEF at MANUAL (full deflection at FULL Flaps commanded).  Also, we have words from a current Hornet driver that they approach in the low-140s and at try to get the boat at MAX TRAP weight.

I talked to a Hornet driver (Charlies) in my curriculum today and he said that they usually worked it out to where they usually approached the deck right under max trap and that they usually looked at approaching the ship in the low 140s.  If you have any more specific questions, let me know and I will ask him.

With this information, I have re-created the same look as the Y/T video I initially posted in the other thread. I was able to put the CS Delta Hornet w/two empty drops and A/A stores, on-glide/on-speed at 140-142 kts, 36 kts WoD.

So whats your argument point? That we should keep the Sludge as it was, both LEF and TEF at MANUAL and no change to the .AIR file? And stay with the mid-low 130s at MAX TRAP weight?  Its not personal, I just wanna know what you are arguing for...

Serge...

Frickin amazing.  I had to leave for work (late shift) but was glancing at this before I left. This is gonna seriously rock.  Now I cant wait to try the Sludge AND Dino's T-45 out on this. I'm guessing the text has audio with it, just like the default MS missions? But taken from actual transmissions?

Later
Sludge

[Sludge]

Serge...

Its funny too, looking at your chart, the OK optimum g/path is just above 400' at Ball Call.  I have my LOW ALT alarm set for 400' and sure enough thats right around the ball call.  So I get visual (flashing ALT) and audio cues (whup, whup) for switching to 2D, un-caging the HUD, and Ball Call.

I'm sure the wait will be worth it.  Your program is looking TOP-NOTCH.

Later
Sludge

[SpazSinbad]

Sludge, good to know you have modified the Hornet as you have described. I have no problem with that. However over the long series of posts at the beginning you were not sure how to go about modifying it and I was wondering why. Alls well that ends well - no worries. I'll leave it at that.

I'll look forward to trying out the 1.3 Sludge? if that is what it will be. As mentioned earlier I have not been flying the 1.2 version.

[Paddles]

... Will there be actual audio or just text messages? I assume just text except for the generic "calls" in that you couldn't have a wav file for every possible fuel state. On the other hand, it would be cool to be able make a wav file for the basic "ball" call with my own voice to replace the generic one.

Yes, there are a number of real LSO audio calls. As you can see there's also a set of radio buttons to control the vLSO talking level, and if you choose Zip-lip conditions you'll still be able to receive some input from the vLSO via on-screen text messages, mentioned on my previous post. You can switch these messages on or off. Everything's in your hands...  

[nicka117]

Great stuff! Thank you for the reply!