Author Topic: Nose high GSX pushback by others on VATSIM/vPilot  (Read 13337 times)

virtuali

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Re: Nose high GSX pushback by others on VATSIM/vPilot
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2023, 07:04:43 pm »
From the above, it appears you have been in contact with Mr Carlson. I would be interested to know how extensive or fruitful your correspondence with Mr Carlson has been

Only very recently, so it doesn't imply in the slightest that we *tried* some coordination a while ago, and it failed for some reason. If this were the case, I would have clearly said so.

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Earlier, you yourself hinted that GSX could be responsible for the appalling pushback animations we see on Vatsim:

I don't know how you could understand that, by saying "maybe vPilot would need to account for that", that would mean GSX is "responsible" for causing this problem, as if you never read or understood all my previous repeated explanations about GSX **ONLY** setting some variables that clearly works correctly in local and standard multiplayer.

Yes, of course this happens when GSX is pushing, but "happening" doesn't mean "causing", considering it doesn't happen unless you use vPilot, that what it meant "vPilot would need to account for that", it means using the variables that signal the freeze, to KNOW GSX is pushing and do something about it.

That's because the normal documented LVariables GSX publish for developers to know GSX is pushing are not transmitted through Simconnect over a network, they are only valid for the user airplane (LVariable really means "Local"), so the only way to know when GSX is pushing is checking the freeze variables themselves, which should be transmitted via Simconnect, although I must say I never tested this.

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Your use of the word 'maybe' concerns me in that it suggests you have not undertaken any testing whatsoever with vPilot.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

I never said I made any test with vPilot myself, and why should I? Since vPilot is not Open Source, the only thing I could do would be *confirm* what users are reporting, and I have no doubts about this happening, also because I saw it in some videos of online sessions. It's not as if I could check the code and have some ideas about how to make vPilot aware of GSX.

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To me this is critical to understand since any other method I have tested (Toolbar Pushback, PMDG and FBW inbuilt push back, and even simply slewing) does not result in the gymnastics we see from online users of GSX Pro. What, precisely, is 'frozen' during the pushback?

Freezing means temporarily disabling the plane's own ground physic, to prevent visual stuttering due to both the simulator's own physic simulation and GSX trying to do the same thing at the same time, which is moving the airplane in certain axes, this because it's a completely custom method with its own custom physics, which is why it does what other methods can't do, like supporting the very different Towbar kinematics, for example, since they still use in some form the default pushback method, which likely solves the in-fighting of two physic simulations automatically because it's part of the sim.

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Umberto, in closing, I refuse to believe that this cannot be readily resolved by a short collaborative effort between yourself and Mr Carlson.

That's what I've been saying for a long time: it can only be fixed from vPilot's side so, clearly, it should be easier with some coordination which, again, has just started.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2023, 07:06:27 pm by virtuali »

Rick Maclure

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Re: Nose high GSX pushback by others on VATSIM/vPilot
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2023, 01:35:56 pm »
That's what I've been saying for a long time: it can only be fixed from vPilot's side so, clearly, it should be easier with some coordination which, again, has just started.

[My emphasis] That's encouraging news! It would be great to be kept abreast of any findings.

Respectfully

FerrevmVnion

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Re: Nose high GSX pushback by others on VATSIM/vPilot
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2023, 04:42:09 pm »
Since the last GSX Update ... "nose up" isnt anymore .... it reminds me to a floating Dschinn when tug is beeing connected... planes start to float


virtuali

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Re: Nose high GSX pushback by others on VATSIM/vPilot
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2023, 10:29:55 am »
Since the last GSX Update ... "nose up" isnt anymore .... it reminds me to a floating Dschinn when tug is beeing connected... planes start to float

There's nothing in the latest update that could possibly fix any issues you are having on Vatsim because, as explained so many times, we can't fix it from our side, there must be something vPilot should do to detect GSX is pushing and do something differently in that case.

Impossible to say exactly *what* vPilot needs to change to fix that but, as I already confirmed in a previous post, we have been in contact with vPilot author, and he's aware of the issue, so I would expect a vPilot update should eventually arrive.

FerrevmVnion

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Re: Nose high GSX pushback by others on VATSIM/vPilot
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2023, 09:09:40 pm »
Time to get this fixed ... its so weird .... :)

https://youtu.be/tDMjCCPUVcI
« Last Edit: November 13, 2023, 11:11:59 am by virtuali »

virtuali

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Re: Nose high GSX pushback by others on VATSIM/vPilot
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2023, 11:18:52 am »
Time to get this fixed ... its so weird ...

Why you keep posting here about this, after all the repeated explanations there's just nothing we can do on our side, because the airplane is clearly NOT pitched up on the local machine, we are just setting some standard variables that are clearly correct locally, and we don't have ANY control over what is being transmitted and, most importantly, how it gets interpreted by vPilot?

I already confirmed I have contacted vPilot author about this, exchanged some ideas, but he's the only one that can do something to fix it on his side, the only thing I can do, is clearly explaining what we do from GSX (done already), so he can write whatever code he needs to write to at least detect it's *gsx* pushing and do whatever is required to do to prevent this from happening.

HeicoH

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Re: Nose high GSX pushback by others on VATSIM/vPilot
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2023, 09:30:16 pm »
If this phenomenon was a vPilot issue, how do you explain that it is also observed in X-Plane? Note that there is no vPilot in X-Plane, the respective app is called xPilot. vPilot and xPilot are not coded by the same people.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2023, 09:35:42 pm by HeicoH »
My GSX test scenario (unless otherwise stated):
Sandbox environment
GSX v 2.9.1 (as of 20 Jan 2023)
Fenix A320, PMDG 737-800, ATR-72
EDDL (JustSim), EDDK (Aerosoft), both not Marketplace
GSX jetways disabled
no AI traffic
no antivirus or firewall software running
all apps started in admin mode

Rick Maclure

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Re: Nose high GSX pushback by others on VATSIM/vPilot
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2023, 12:15:36 pm »
I already confirmed I have contacted vPilot author about this, exchanged some ideas, but he's the only one that can do something to fix it on his side, the only thing I can do, is clearly explaining what we do from GSX (done already), so he can write whatever code he needs to write to at least detect it's *gsx* pushing and do whatever is required to do to prevent this from happening.

Umberto, I'm delighted that you have exstablished contact with Ross Carlson. I would be grateful if you could keep us informed with regards progress. By now I'm sure you are already aware that this is a major issue for those flying on a Vatsim network.

Respectfully

Rick Maclure

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Re: Nose high GSX pushback by others on VATSIM/vPilot
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2023, 12:58:13 pm »
If this phenomenon was a vPilot issue, how do you explain that it is also observed in X-Plane? Note that there is no vPilot in X-Plane, the respective app is called xPilot. vPilot and xPilot are not coded by the same people.
If you are using xPilot and you see these awful pushback 'animations' then you need to consider that that user will be using vPilot. As far as I am aware FSDT do not make a GSX add-on for X-Plane.


Umberto has already emphasised that these immersion breaking pushback animations we see on VATSIM do not occur in an MSFS multiplayer environment. Perhaps that illustrates the scope of FSDT's pushback testing; I suspect GSX Pro was not tested in an open network such as VATSIM.

vPilot interprets the client's aircraft altitude, heading, pitch and roll (amongst other attributes) and sends that telemetry data to the VATSIM network so the client's aircraft is depicted correctly to other network users. Umberto has suspected that since GSX Pro 'freezes' the aircraft during pushback (I understand this to mean that GSX Pro itself specifies the aircraft waypoints to be followed during pushback) then vPilot is misinterpreting telemetry data during this time. Why this results in the grossly inaccurate representation of aircraft pitch, no-one can say. I'm sure a solution is achievable and I'm pleased to see that Umberto has reach out to vPilot's author to work collaboratively.

I suspect GSX Pro was originally conceived as a single user add-on - and in that case it appears to work satisfactorily. However, with more and more simmers enjoying flying on open networks like VATSIM, the pushback process is now a significant issue.

I'd like to know if the GSX pushback issue is seen on the IVAO network which uses a separate client (Altitude).
« Last Edit: November 14, 2023, 01:07:25 pm by Rick Maclure »

HeicoH

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Re: Nose high GSX pushback by others on VATSIM/vPilot
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2023, 01:10:00 pm »
@Rick Maclure:

"Umberto has already emphasised that these immersion breaking pushback animations we see on VATSIM do not occur in an MSFS multiplayer environment."

Well, Umborto may have emphasised that, but this does not make it true.

We formed a group of experienced MSFS and X-Plane users to investigate this "phenomenon".

The truth is: it happens in multiplayer too.
On the other hand, no other pushback tool causes this phenomenon.

Why it should be vPilot's fault remains unclear.
My GSX test scenario (unless otherwise stated):
Sandbox environment
GSX v 2.9.1 (as of 20 Jan 2023)
Fenix A320, PMDG 737-800, ATR-72
EDDL (JustSim), EDDK (Aerosoft), both not Marketplace
GSX jetways disabled
no AI traffic
no antivirus or firewall software running
all apps started in admin mode

Rick Maclure

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Re: Nose high GSX pushback by others on VATSIM/vPilot
« Reply #40 on: November 14, 2023, 01:40:32 pm »
We formed a group of experienced MSFS and X-Plane users to investigate this "phenomenon".
I appreciate you and your fellow testers (you don't specify how many contributed) taking the effort to conduct an independent assessment of the problem. I think the community would value an understanding of the scope of your testing. Can you share you test plans/test scenarios? Was any testing undertaken on the IVAO network and their Altitude client?

Why it should be vPilot's fault remains unclear.
I don't think it is vPilot's fault. I think the issue sits between the way GSX Pro 'freezes' the aircraft during pushback and how vPilot interprets the telemetry during this time.

HeicoH

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Re: Nose high GSX pushback by others on VATSIM/vPilot
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2023, 01:46:45 pm »
I will be happy to publish the test scenarios if the other members of the group agree. There were 10 users in total.

No testing was carried out on the IVAO network.
My GSX test scenario (unless otherwise stated):
Sandbox environment
GSX v 2.9.1 (as of 20 Jan 2023)
Fenix A320, PMDG 737-800, ATR-72
EDDL (JustSim), EDDK (Aerosoft), both not Marketplace
GSX jetways disabled
no AI traffic
no antivirus or firewall software running
all apps started in admin mode

virtuali

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Re: Nose high GSX pushback by others on VATSIM/vPilot
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2023, 07:28:57 pm »
If this phenomenon was a vPilot issue, how do you explain that it is also observed in X-Plane? Note that there is no vPilot in X-Plane, the respective app is called xPilot. vPilot and xPilot are not coded by the same people.

It might just be a SIMCONNECT BUG.

If we were setting the variable "wrong", it would be wrong also on the local machine and, as I've said so many times, the existence of a network connection (or not), is completely unknown to GSX, we are not transmitting anything over the network.

That's why there's just nothing we can do from our side, the only thing that can be done, by those authors, is to DETECT the way GSX does a push back and do something do prevent it, which doesn't mean it's THEIR FAULT!!!, it simply means:

if there's a problem with some specific variables in Simconnect, possibly related to units of measure used by some variables, since THOSE apps are tasked with INTERPRETING what is coming from Simconnect, the "fix" can only come from them, by detecting GSX and do something.

Keep saying "it doesn't happen with other pushback tools" and just because of this, assuming it's "GSX's fault" or something that we could fix in GSX, it's plain wrong, because if those "other tools" use DIFFERENT variables which might not be affected by a possible Simconnect bug (Simconnect has lots of unsolved bugs, more serious than this), it's easily explain why it doesn't happen with other pushback methods.

So, AGAIN:

- It's not vPilot "fault"

- It's not GSX "fault

But it can ONLY be fixed from vPilot, is this now clear to you ?

HeicoH

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Re: Nose high GSX pushback by others on VATSIM/vPilot
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2023, 04:41:50 am »
@Rick Maclure:

The following pushback cases were tested and observed:

1. MSFS / FBW A320 / MSFS-internal pushback (ATC menu) / on Vatsim
2. MSFS / FBW A320 / Pushback Helper / on Vatsim
3. MSFS / FBW A320 / Toolbar Pushback / on Vatsim
4. MSFS / FBW A320 / pushback by GSX / on Vatsim
5. MSFS / FBW A320 / MSFS-internal pushback (ATC menu) / Multiplayer
6. MSFS / FBW A320 / Pushback Helper / Multiplayer
7. MSFS / FBW A320 / Toolbar Pushback / Multiplayer
8. MSFS / FBW A320 / pushback by GSX / Multiplayer
9. MSFS / Fenix A320 / MSFS-internal pushback (ATC menu) / on Vatsim
10. MSFS / Fenix A320 / Pushback Helper / on Vatsim
11. MSFS / Fenix A320 / Toolbar Pushback (*) / on Vatsim
12. MSFS / Fenix A320 / Fenix-internal pushback (EFB) / on Vatsim
13. MSFS / Fenix A320 / pushback by GSX / on Vatsim
14. MSFS / Fenix A320 / MSFS-internal pushback (ATC menu) / Multiplayer
15. MSFS / Fenix A320 / Pushback Helper / Multiplayer
16. MSFS / Fenix A320 / Toolbar Pushback (*) / Multiplayer
17. MSFS / Fenix A320 / Fenix-internal pushback (EFB) / Multiplayer
18. MSFS / Fenix A320 / pushback by GSX / Multiplayer
19. X-Plane / Toliss A320 / Toliss-internal pushback / on Vatsim
20. X-Plane / Toliss A320 / Better Pushback / on Vatsim

(*) When starting, the Fenix app warns that Toolbar Pushback is not compatible with the Fenix. However, no incompatibilities were found during the tests.

The result:

The "Nose High phenomenon" was observed in cases no.4, no.8, no.13 (even if observed in X-Plane) and no.18
The "Nose High phenomenon" was not observed in any other cases.

The conclusion:

The "Nose High phenomenon" is caused by GSX.

Note:
None of the testers can understand that FSDT is demanding a change to the vPilot code instead of changing the GSX code. This is all the more true because the phenomenon can also be observed in multiplayer, which the developers of vPilot of course have no influence on.

My GSX test scenario (unless otherwise stated):
Sandbox environment
GSX v 2.9.1 (as of 20 Jan 2023)
Fenix A320, PMDG 737-800, ATR-72
EDDL (JustSim), EDDK (Aerosoft), both not Marketplace
GSX jetways disabled
no AI traffic
no antivirus or firewall software running
all apps started in admin mode

Captain Kevin

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Re: Nose high GSX pushback by others on VATSIM/vPilot
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2023, 11:59:20 am »
This is all the more true because the phenomenon can also be observed in multiplayer, which the developers of vPilot of course have no influence on.
So the problem here is that your post is the first post I'm seeing where it did impact multiplayer. Up until this point, nobody had ever mentioned anything about seeing it in multiplayer, and Umberto had reported that he was NOT seeing this issue in multiplayer. This could have been looked into a lot better had that information been known.
Captain Kevin