Author Topic: Sure to cause a storm this  (Read 1297 times)

DrFronkensteen

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Sure to cause a storm this
« on: March 23, 2023, 01:14:33 am »
Preface, I have a full size 737 cockpit/shell, 3 screens and run MSFS2020 with Prosim and FSUIPC. I have been flying for about 10 years and using GSX for about 6 of those. GSX V1 was a bit clunky but it has like most apps got better with time and I bought V2 Pro (which I had to pay for MSFS even though I had a working V2 copy on P3D). I have read the manual.

V2 Pro - What do I like about it. When everything lines up right and I have spent a lot of time setting the plane up and all the conditions are just right it works great. The animation is great and the difference in people and walking speeds etc is really good. The bus is filled up on arrival and people slowly move out from the bus and it empties properly, then they walk nicely to the stairs and oddly they seem to know where the stairs are. It would be great though if like in real boarding the people would stop and queue up (because some imbecile is taking forever to sit in their seat), but that might stretch the movement algorithm a bit much.

GSX is relatively easy to use once it is configured and I have built a small button box to mimic the keyboard/mouse (I prefer not to use those in my sim). The de-icing is cool, the pin holding is nice. The little dance by the Ground Crew for parking right on 0.0 - 0.0 is also cool, except for when you park right on the line and it says Bad Parking.

I have setup my aircraft 737-800NG for door heights, baggage types etc... All works good when you get your head around the clunky way to do it, not sure why you can't use the mouse for this but I am sure there is a valid reason. My keyboard seems to do things other than what it should according to the GSX Key definitions but once you work that out it is not too bad.

What I think could be better, or refined to make this program work better. It works, just not very well on some things, unless I am doing something wrong and I am always happy to be told how to do it right. So I post this more for some advice on how I can improve my experience which at the moment has forced me to disable GSX.

1 - "The COATL Engine has not started". So, why not just start it from within the app, can't be too hard. I shouldn't have to manually start this. Sometimes after a flight it is not running anymore when I get to the gate, for some reason it has decided to stop (No longer even in Task Manager) and I have to manually start it again. Also the menu option to Restart Coatl option rarely works and I have to manually stop/start this. [EDIT - I see there is a post on this now]

2 - After landing and at the gate and there is a working jetway, there is no use of the back stairs ever for pax in GSX. I am not sure if this is because I have not set up the walking points (see point further below) or whether it just boards/deboards only from the front if a jetway exists. Not real life, you should be able to select this for your Plane/Company in GSX config.
An aside on this, with the working jetway which is great and the people coming on board especially if it is glass, GSX takes control of your front pax door and you cannot control it anymore either in the FMC or using the IOS, ok I can live with that, only thing is the door is still closed while the pax board (for me at least), not open, even though it shows open in the FMC.

3 - The straight P/B after the turn is always too far. Often this causes the sim to push/crash into the terminal. In real life, and I have watched this many times at many airports, the straight push after the turn is only ever a few feet if any, once it is straight, and according to my friend who does the push backs for a living. Only exception I have seen is if they push you right out onto the apron away from the gates. And I don't want to have to go and configure every gate for pushback, I shouldn't need to. GSX often gets this wrong even with paid airports and pushes me anywhere except where it should be.

4 - Nose Left/Right prompt. Often I miss this because I am doing other stuff (final flight planning, Alt/CRS/Hdg etc.), there is no audible prompt for this so I sit there waiting for PB (because attaching the pin and tug also takes forever) until I realize nothing is happening and have to bring up the menu and realize it's waiting for me to acknowledge, even if I only have 1 option set for p/b in the config, e.g. Nose left, Tail right. Personally I think this P/B direction could easily be done when you first request pushback as part of that set of procedures not another one later on.

5 - The time it takes to remove the pin and hold it up is way just too long, I am burning up precious fuel here. And holding up the pin, really has no benefit apart from actually doing the real world thing which is nice. It would be better though if there was an option for the pilot to acknowledge this e.g. Wheel Well Light Off (without hanging out the window and giving the thumbs up which you can't do in a sim).

Engine Start - if I turn off the option for the Good Engine Start prompt this actually happens automatically as soon as I set the park brake after the push, even though normally by this time I normally only have one engine started if that. Not sure what the fix for this is without leaving it unticked and having to bring up the menu and acknowledge it. Maybe when the logo light is turned on, or the engines are actually running?

6 - And this is probably the worst for me, what I would consider the proper defaults, are just not there.
To have Pax walk to the plane I have to set a series of waypoints otherwise there is nothing. The Pax really could default to walking to the back stairs from a predefined point at the terminal (e.g. from directly below the jetway). But unless you go through the tedious effort to set up walking points you get no pax to the back stairs, as mentioned before they only board from the front of the plane. Surely some defaults could be set and I could modify these if needed. As an example the Ground crew just appear out of the wall so why not also the pax? When the pax come or go on a bus they know exactly where to walk. In the instance where you land at a smaller airport with no jetway, GSX decides there needs to be a bus, even though I have parked right in front of the terminal and they could just walk inside. The poor pax have to walk the entire length of the terminal from the bus drop off to get back to collect their bags. I know it is probably difficult to know every airport but for most pax walk off the plane and inside the terminal via the closest way possible. If the default was below the jetway then the user could change it if they wanted to. Currently there is nothing.

7 - Door positions - Maybe there could be a selection in GSX config for the more common planes e.g. an A320, 737, 747 which automatically default the door/cargo positions? I know every model is different, but even supplying a Config file for these may help. I had to spend an extraordinary amount of time doing this, granted it is a 1 off but in a full size sim this is extremely harder to do than a single screen on a desk (which I think this app is primarily written for).

The default parking position for the rear stairs is just comical. I have yet to see a real airport where the rear stairs are stored 60m out from the terminal in the middle of the apron (yes I know I can change this but again defaults..). All stairs and conveyors should be in their pre defined equipment bays next to the terminal.

Lastly on this default part - I know there is the option to set the correct spots for these things, but I shouldn't have to, most gates at airports (arguable) have a relatively standard floor plan (marked off equipment areas) for where things go. I shouldn't have to go and spend time putting the stairs and baggage ramps in the right spot and setting the pax walking places from scratch. But more annoying is the fact you have to do this for EVERY GATE at EVERY AIRPORT, that is thousands of gates. So when you land at a new airport nothing is configured and you are back to busses. Is it not possible to have these things attached to the plane model rather than the airport? I know it wouldn't always be completely right and it is airport specific not plane but it would be better than having no deplaining pax.

8 - GSX traffic. This is often hilarious to watch the catering and baggage trucks smash through each other even though GSX put them there. It seem weird to me that this happens, surely GSX knows the positions of it's own vehicles.

As I have said I really like GSX, but I think it could be better with some tweaks as mentioned above, but that is just me and I am willing to learn how to do it properly, I just don't want to spend hours configuring every airport gate I land at.

Cheers
DrF

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Re: Sure to cause a storm this
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2023, 03:42:24 am »
except for when you park right on the line and it says Bad Parking.

It doesn't.  But without a GSX customization of the Stop position, the line doesn't mean anything. Have a read of the manual, the "Understanding the Stop position" chapter.

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not sure why you can't use the mouse for this but I am sure there is a valid reason.

You said you had the P3D version, so I'm sure you'll remember it had the mouse working on the editor, which required P3D 4.4, which added a specific API to handle mouse clicks on the scenery. FSX and all previous versions of P3D didn't supported it, I'm sure you now understood the "valid reason" why we don't have it MSFS.

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My keyboard seems to do things other than what it should according to the GSX Key definitions.

Some keys works only with the NumLock key disabled. And some keys in the Showcase Camera view must be disabled to not conflict with GSX,  the manual of course explains that, on Page 43.

And a few keys are less intuitive they might be on some international keyboards, like German or Swiss, where the Z and Y key are inverted, so the "intuitive" Q and Z to raise/lower things, becomes less intuitive on those keyboards, because their position is not as intuitive as it was on the English keyboard. We can't really fix this, because the Y key is used to enter the Slew camera.

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1 - "The COATL Engine has not started". So, why not just start it from within the app, can't be too hard. I shouldn't have to manually start this.

Of course it starts from the app, and uses the standard EXE.XML metho to add itself to the automatic startup.

However, sometimes the EXE.XML doesn't work very well, for a variety of reasons, from being corrupted, because there are other apps in there that made changes to it, possibly their ordering, and also it's possible if you launch MSFS from another application ( like the Addon Linker ), it might not be able to start the programs in the EXE.XML, because of complex permission issues, due to the fact those apps wouldn't be "child" applications, but "grand-childs", because MSFS itself was started as a "child" from another app.

Of course, we have a Sticky thread in the forum, aptly named "Couatl starts manually, but not automatically with the simulator", which offers many possible solutions to this.

https://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,26924.0.html


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Sometimes after a flight it is not running anymore when I get to the gate, for some reason it has decided to stop (No longer even in Task Manager) and I have to manually start it again. Also the menu option to Restart Coatl option rarely works and I have to manually stop/start this. [EDIT - I see there is a post on this now]

This is a completely different issue that doesn't have anything to do with the automatic startup.

Since GSX doesn't do anything in flight, other than checking the current position and asking periodically about what airports are around the airplane, which is like 1% of the workload that it normally does when doing actual servicing, and GSX surely doesn't crash while servicing, the only possible reasons I can think of, is some kind of problem/bug in the Navdata API, which is not used by many apps ( GSX was the first using the SU10 version, and it's again the first one using the SU12 version ), which sometimes makes it crash.

Some user reported that enabling Windows 8 Compatibility mode improves this ( I'd say, most users who had this problem reported this ), but a few users said it made it worse. Of course, I was never able to produce a crash in flight, but I don't use many add-ons, because it's hard enough to troubleshoot your stuff, it becomes impossible if you add the issues caused by others.

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2 - After landing and at the gate and there is a working jetway, there is no use of the back stairs ever for pax in GSX. I am not sure if this is because I have not set up the walking points (see point further below) or whether it just boards/deboards only from the front if a jetway exists. Not real life, you should be able to select this for your Plane/Company in GSX config.

Everybody has his own idea on what real life is. Initially, GSX always displayed the rear jetway to be used only by an hypothetical cleaning crew. While this is very common in Europe, many in the US complained cleaning crew use other vehicles to board, so we added the ability to remove it, on a parking by parking basis. The users complained they didn't want to customize every airport, so we added the ability to disable it globally ( if the parking has a jetway ).

So back to the last thing, yes, of course we ARE obviously planning to allow boarding passengers from the rear stairs, even if the gate has a jetway, either exclusively, or even at the same time as the jetway, as a choice.

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GSX takes control of your front pax door

First, GSX doesn't control the Main Passenger exit when there's a jetway. More precisely, it doesn't anymore, because after a certain update ( can't say exactly which one ) in the simulator, it's the sim *itself* that automatically opens the Main exit when the Jetway is connecting, so we removed the automatic door opening from GSX for the Main exit, if the gate has a Jetway. Only the other doors are controlled by GSX.

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and you cannot control it anymore either in the FMC or using the IOS, ok I can live with that, only thing is the door is still closed while the pax board (for me at least), not open, even though it shows open in the FMC.

That's another issue entirely, and seems to be caused by trying to use an unsupported airplane, with the door variables not set correctly.

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3 - The straight P/B after the turn is always too far. Often this causes the sim to push/crash into the terminal.

If you mean the final part of the automatic Left/Right Pushback that hasn't been customized, the direction will be towards the first available node, so it changes depending on the scenery, but the *distance* covered is just enough to have the airplane and the tow truck ending up straight.

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GSX often gets this wrong even with paid airports and pushes me anywhere except where it should be.

While it's universally acknowledged by the vast majority of users GSX does a very good job even WITHOUT any customization, if you think it doesn't, that's precisely the reason why you can CUSTOMIZE a pushback route.

And before you say "should I do that for every gate on every airport ?". Of course not, that's why we have the QuickEdit pushback, which enters in editing mode just to create the route, which will then automatically saved for the next time you'll use that spot, so you can simply customize as you go.

Or, of course, you can just download a pre-made profile: the good ones usually have custom pushbacks, sometimes even multiple procedures for each gate.


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4 - Nose Left/Right prompt. Often I miss this because I am doing other stuff (final flight planning, Alt/CRS/Hdg etc.), there is no audible prompt for this

This suggestion might work, if only you don't take into account that those two Left/Right slots are just "slots". Then can be possibly customized to perform something completely different than what you expect. And of course, it's not just Left or Right, that parking spot might have multiple custom pushback Slots and even a saved QuickEdit slot. And ALL of them can be even renamed to tell something completely different than Left or Right, so an hypothetical audio message would only work with zero customization, which is under-utilizing GSX.

We'll revisit this, in case Microsoft would improve the SDK, to let us access the Text to Speech engine in the simulator, to let us play anything, that would made that feature more feasible, since we could hear even a possibly customized pushback routing being called by its custom name.


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5 - The time it takes to remove the pin and hold it up is way just too long, I am burning up precious fuel here. And holding up the pin, really has no benefit apart from actually doing the real world thing which is nice.

Happy to see you are recognizing we are in fact trying to represent the real work.

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Engine Start - if I turn off the option for the Good Engine Start prompt this actually happens automatically as soon as I set the park brake after the push, even though normally by this time I normally only have one engine started if that. Not sure what the fix for this is without leaving it unticked and having to bring up the menu and acknowledge it. Maybe when the logo light is turned on, or the engines are actually running?

The disable option is only used to skip the menu, that's what users asked. The check over the engines running is made if at least one engine is running, under the assumption that, if something's wrong, you have a least one engine to taxi back to the gate, so the Tow truck can go away. Of course, this is in preparation when we'll have Pull capatilities, so you would be able to ask to be towed back, if all engines died.


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6 - And this is probably the worst for me, what I would consider the proper defaults, are just not there. To have Pax walk to the plane I have to set a series of waypoints otherwise there is nothing.

This is the one I most strongly disagree with, instead. What you are suggesting can't be applied to the real world of sceneries that might be full of obstacles and unpredictable paths, not to mention even the placement of the starting positions of the GSX vehicles themselves, which interact with the passenger waypoints, they must all be set together, properly, there's no way to do it automatically.

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7 - Door positions - Maybe there could be a selection in GSX config for the more common planes e.g. an A320, 737, 747 which automatically default the door/cargo positions? I know every model is different

There, you said it. Every model is different. Same planes from different developers are usually different enough that you would still have to go through each door individually. You said it takes lots of time to do it but, it's not as if you are constantly adding new airplanes ( *especially* on a full flight sim ), it's something you only do once.

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The default parking position for the rear stairs is just comical. I have yet to see a real airport where the rear stairs are stored 60m out from the terminal in the middle of the apron (yes I know I can change this but again defaults..).

The default are not obviously "comical", they are in a reasonable position that would reduce the chance they'll run into each other, CONSIDERING we don't know nothing about the scenery buildings. And no, they are not "60 m" away. That's only if you are on an extremely large parking spot, since their position is a factor of the parking radius.

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All stairs and conveyors should be in their pre defined equipment bays next to the terminal.

The only thing GSX knows about an airport, is parking spots, taxiway and runways. There's zero information we have about anything else so, those pre defined areas can only be simulated by making a custom profile and hoping the scenery hasn't already filled them up with too much static things.

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But more annoying is the fact you have to do this for EVERY GATE at EVERY AIRPORT, that is thousands of gates

No, only the airport you are flying to, only the gates you are going to use. That is if you want to do it yourself.

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. So when you land at a new airport nothing is configured and you are back to busses. Is it not possible to have these things attached to the plane model rather than the airport?

If with "these things" you mean passengers waypoints, than no, they cannot obviously attached to the plane, since their destination and path is tied to the airport, and it's different for every gate. If, instead, you mean other vehicles, that's goes in the opposite direction of your other suggestion that vehicles should be in their designed areas. It's either one or another.

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8 - GSX traffic. This is often hilarious to watch the catering and baggage trucks smash through each other even though GSX put them there. It seem weird to me that this happens, surely GSX knows the positions of it's own vehicles.

That's precisely what you are missing: GSX doesn't ALWAYS know the position of its own vehicles. Fact they are "its own", doesn't automatically make the task of checking the positions of multiple vehicles, at every frame, thus saturating the (already saturated by others apps, like AI traffic) Simconnect communication channel any less heavy, and of course, even if we could "monitor" the position without mich performance impact, we should then ACT on it.

You don't seem to have the faintest idea how complex this can be. After YEARS or research, with an almost "infinite" budget, the automotive industry still hasn't cracked the full autonomous driving problem. They can barely drive on highways, and are taking years of testing and dedicated hardware with an *army* of engineers, trying to solve driving in cities.

An airport apron, sometimes can be even more cramped than a regular street and, if that's not enough, moving *articulated* vehicles, like baggage carts, it's WAY more complex than a simple car. But yet, for some reason, you are expecting vehicles from a 29$ add-on for a video game to have "clever" self-driving vehicles that can maneuver in a space where in real life you need trained drivers.

As explained so many times already here, most of the issues of the vehicle supposedly clashing into each other, can be solved by:

- Adapting their starting positions

- NOT using the automatic servicing option. This option has been requested by many users, but I was always opposed to it, because I know how much easier is see vehicle clashing into each other, when instead of your own brain, we have a sequence of services starting one after each other. Just calling the services individually, goes a great deal to fix vehicles clashing into each other.


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I just don't want to spend hours configuring every airport gate I land at.

Look, it's not 2018 anymore, when we came out with GSX Level 2, that added lots of customization option, and it was INITIALLY criticised by the "I just don't want to spend hours configuring every airport gate I land at" people, assuming THEY must do it. This of course turned out to be a feeble argument, and the reality is that, in a very short time, users realized is not required to create profiles themselves: it's enough ONE person creates a profile and share it.

With MSFS being so much popular than P3D ever was, the creators Community has become way larger so, when we previously had a dozen of well known individuals who were good at doing profiles, now we have hundreds, with hundreds of custom profile that can be freely downloaded, for any conceivable airport.

So no, the "I just don't want to spend hours configuring every airport gate I land at" argument is really obsolete by now.

DrFronkensteen

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Re: Sure to cause a storm this
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2023, 12:16:18 pm »
Thanks for the reply Umberto. I do understand a little more why you do the things you do. We can agree to disagree on a few points but a couple I will re-raise.

My straight pushback after the turn (not-edited) IS way to long, it goes for about 30 metres. I spoke to my Pushback guy tonight and he said they pretty much push straight back, a sharp 90deg turn and about another 2-3m to get the nose straight.

The default rear stairs are 60M from the terminal, I can send you a pic if you like but as default you would be able to see this. My plane is 40M long, the stairs are 20M behind that.

"It doesn't.  But without a GSX customization of the Stop position, the line doesn't mean anything. Have a read of the manual, the "Understanding the Stop position" chapter."
So how can it say bad parking if it doesn't have a reference yet.

My keyboard is US standard, nothing special, what I was saying was the keys (regardless of the numlock) that is shown in the KeyMap prior to going to edit do not work for me as they should according to the keymap, no big deal once I worked out which ones do.

"That's another issue entirely, and seems to be caused by trying to use an unsupported airplane, with the door variables not set correctly."
I am using the Prosim-AR 737-800 Airplane Model which I believe has been supported for some time.

"This is the one I most strongly disagree with, instead. What you are suggesting can't be applied to the real world of sceneries that might be full of obstacles and unpredictable paths, not to mention even the placement of the starting positions of the GSX vehicles themselves, which interact with the passenger waypoints, they must all be set together, properly, there's no way to do it automatically."
But the bus comes in regardless of whether there is anything in the way, and the catering trucks are happy to collide with things, why not the PAX. As I said initially there is a relatively standard Equipment area around the jetway and STOP line, surely the PAX could walk to the first bus point then. If users put things in the way that is their own fault but by default there really shouldn't be anything in the way that the airport would allow.

"You don't seem to have the faintest idea how complex this can be. After YEARS or research, with an almost "infinite" budget, the automotive industry still hasn't cracked the full autonomous driving problem. They can barely drive on highways, and are taking years of testing and dedicated hardware with an *army* of engineers, trying to solve driving in cities."
Staggering. You are seriously comparing 6 trucks tied to a single airplane in a 60m space to the entire world of real automobiles. By default there is nothing at the airport. If you buy an airport it may come with static or even moving ground items. That is just bad luck and not your fault or anything you should even have to care about.
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This program is great but the user input is now bigger than the program. Instead of you guys offering a good set of defaults as I have unsuccessfully tried to offer, you shy away and leave it to the community users to make all the config files and share them with each other to make your program work properly. But if they can make them right why can't you as a default that I can then change if I wish.

You are right Umberto I don't understand the complex algorithm's you are running and being an ex-programmer I do appreciate the effort you go to to try and get it right. I won't argue anymore but the fact that it doesn't work more often than it does (and I use the same airplane every time) leads me to the conclusion that it is more trouble than it is worth right now. I will keep an eye out for updates and keep checking because I would like to use it.

Kind regards
Peter

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Re: Sure to cause a storm this
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2023, 12:53:46 pm »
My straight pushback after the turn (not-edited) IS way to long, it goes for about 30 metres.

Assuming it's really not edited, 30 meters seems to be a bit long because, the way it's coded, is that as soon the pushback+towbar+airplane are lined up, pushback will stop there. It will be shorter with a Towbarless vehicle.

Please provide a precise indication which airport, which gate and which direction

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I spoke to my Pushback guy tonight and he said they pretty much push straight back, a sharp 90deg turn and about another 2-3m to get the nose straight.

I assume he was referring to a Towbarless truck, I'm not sure it's even possible to be straight after 2-3 meters, when just the towbar is longer than that. Unless it's ok for them to just let the airplane nose straight and the tow truck skewed.

You CAN achieve this, if you are

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The default rear stairs are 60M from the terminal, I can send you a pic if you like but as default you would be able to see this. My plane is 40M long, the stairs are 20M behind that.

No, they aren't. Not everywhere, because their start position is based on the Parking radius, not the airplane size or position, you must have tried a fairly large spot, and assumed it was always like that.


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So how can it say bad parking if it doesn't have a reference yet.

It does have a default reference, but it not related to the end of the yellow line, but to its own default strategy to position the airplane, which might not match the same one used by the simulator. That is, in *absence* of a better customization of the Stop position.

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My keyboard is US standard, nothing special, what I was saying was the keys (regardless of the numlock) that is shown in the KeyMap prior to going to edit do not work for me as they should according to the keymap, no big deal once I worked out which ones do.

They surely do, if they don't work for you, make a precise list of the ones that don't, and we'll see why.

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I am using the Prosim-AR 737-800 Airplane Model which I believe has been supported for some time.

Surely it's not. Any profile you have for this one, either you do it yourself, or you download it, but I can't say if it's correct or not.

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But the bus comes in regardless of whether there is anything in the way, and the catering trucks are happy to collide with things, why not the PAX.

That is precisely what I said when I said, if you called them manually, you can have a say when they start, and prevent collisions.  An example, if you call Boarding after Catering went away, you surely won't have any clashes between the Bus and the Catering because...it's no longer there.

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Staggering. You are seriously comparing 6 trucks tied to a single airplane in a 60m space to the entire world of real automobiles. By default there is nothing at the airport. If you buy an airport it may come with static or even moving ground items. That is just bad luck and not your fault or anything you should even have to care about.

Yes, I AM seriously comparing, meaning it might be even more difficult. And no, the number of vehicles is not really an issue, it's more the limited space, and the fact that many vehicles are articulated and in general longer than cars.