Author Topic: Carrier Landings  (Read 78659 times)

fael097

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2008, 04:24:50 am »
dude, i dont use parking brakes when im at 150kts, or when im landing on a carrier, i just said that so you can picture what happens with the nose on arrested landings... looks like i'll have to make another movie to clarify this.

Great Ozzie

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2008, 11:32:34 am »
Hey Delta... here's my 2 cents worth (which is a lot like the Microbrewster's info so sry in adv. if it's duplicate).

I accomplished the Carrier Practice Mission several times, but was very dissatisfied with my performance.  I'd slam the nose in sometimes and create a shower-o-sparks.  Or break one of the main gear, land in excess of 750 fpm,  not be centered and have the resulting roll-over (mission failure for all 3 of those, of course).  My speed would be high (145+), AOA was high... no consistency… it was all goofed up.  The attachment is a pic of what happened on one of my nutty-er traps.  :-[

So I decide to alter the mission in a couple ways:

1) I set the Weather Theme to Fair Wx.  (lol, like the pic).

2) BINGO level set to Zero.

3) Fuel dumped to about 3600 pounds (this can be done fairly quickly by hooking up to the Cat, switching on fuel DUMP and going into MAX afterburner.)  This provides plenty enough fuel to make 5 arrested landings and a couple of bolters to boot.

4) I use the "Radio Stack" view.  (I was frustrated with the head acceleration/deceleration in VC so I had to come up with something else.)  I zoom to like .40 and shift the eyepoint (primarily using ALT+SHIFT+ENTER/BACKSPACE and SHIFT+ENTER/BACKSPACE).  At the bottom of my screen I can see the EFD (engine fuel display) on the left and the red HOOK light on the right.

At this zoom level, the meatball is difficult to precisely see in relation to the datum lights, so what I do to compensate is fly slightly low so that the meatball turns from flashing red to red (maybe even to orange and back to red... make sense?) i.e. I fly slightly below glidepath for most of the approach.

Btw, to the person who posted the how to stop the head movement in VC... blessings be upon thee.

As I understand the posts here... most have been using %N1 (fan speed) but I will be describing power settings in terms of %N2 (compressor speed) because this is what is displayed on the EFD.  And when flying I usually have something else in the DDI (besides the ENG display) :-P

I launch with full flaps (why mess with them?) and ~85% power and begin a climbing left turn.  On the downwind leg I level off at 1200' AGL, am heading 185 degrees and trim for level flight at 150kts (this is what I shoot for anyway).  Power here isn't much to stay level... like ~ 79%.

After a minute or so downwind of the abeam point, I approach what appears to be a Spruance Class DD, and I get the "235 Paddles Contact".   I make my 180 back to the carrier, using roughly ~81% power (maybe a touch more) holding altitude, while pulling just enough G to bleed my airspeed down to about 135kts.  This puts me about 3 miles from the ship, below the glideslope at 1200', and I hold level flight with ~79% power.

Now I make my second (and last) trim adjustment... to 135kts.  Normally I'm a trim hound, and for any airspeed/power/flap change I trim out any backpressure, but these carrier landings are the one exception to my rule.  I'll trim on the first approach to 135kts and not touch trim again (if I can help it) for the next 4 landings.  Once glideslope intercept is made (flashing red meatball goes to red), I'll pull power back a touch to 76 or 77% (maybe a touch more, maybe less, depends how stable my turn to final was).  So now I am set up on a nice long stable ~600 to 700fpm descent, at roughly 135kts.

Now with this Fair Wx setting... this is one approach where one doesn't have to be a throttle jockey.  If you can get setup on the glideslope on course, with the right airspeed and power setting early... it's like you’re riding the beam, or riding a rail.  All that will be needed is minor corrections.  Personally, I hate to make a throttle correction in this Wx theme (especially in the Clear Skies theme), but in the other themes (like the Wx for the actual Carrier Practice mission) sure, I have to continually adjust it.

I think my technique varies slightly from the Brewster's in that, I pitch for airspeed (instead of an Onspeed indication), then fine tune my AOA according to the AOA indexer to get the Onspeed indication, using power to control rate of descent (like he said, everything is inter-related, but if I have to say what is primarily doing what... pitch to airspeed/AOA and power for rate of descent).  I picked 135kts as my initial target airspeed because the LSO calls out "Too Slow" at 125 and "Too Fast" at 145.

When I'm way out at the beginning of the 3 mile approach, I like to see the velocity vector cover up the fantail of the ship.  I don't aim for this, just something I like to see.  As I get closer it will "drift" toward the bow of the ship at which point I'm really ignoring it.  I scan in 2 primary places: the flight deck and the HUD.  Looking at the flight deck I check the meatball and alignment.  Back at the HUD, the AOA indexer is making itself quite well known, and I'll check airspeed and descent rate (and maybe sneak a peek at the actual AOA).  It's almost like sighting a rifle... fore then aft then back again.  Whatever you do, you HAVE to keep scanning and making whatever tiny corrections that need to be made as soon as you recognize it.

Once the ship blossoms into view (inside the 3/4 mile mark) I am verifying the picture I see of the landing area with my landing parameters (AOA, rate of descent and meatball).  At some point I will lose sight of the meatball as the HUD will block my view of it (shortly before flying over the fantail) and my airspeed/rate of descent is what it is... that is my total focus shifts entirely to the landing area.  I do this to maintain my AOA and alignment to the centerline.  In the few 10ths of a second remaining, I reconcile the landing picture I see with the picture I have in my head of what things should look like.  Of course you’re so close by this point, only minute corrections can be made.

And I just continue flying it onto the deck as if there were no deck there.  No flare, no nothing.  I don’t try to force it down… either the hook will engage a wire or I fly a bolter (seems somewhat surreal at this point, at least until you realize which is happening).   The arrest is made and as soon as I feel the hook release, I come back a touch on the power so I can taxi to launch for the next one.

Once I got this entire picture firmly emblazoned in my mind, I went back to do the actual Carrier Practice Mission.  I could then consistently make 5 landings in a row without totaling my bird.

What is even more fun for me now is to fly the “Clear Skies” Wx theme and set it to about midnight on the night of the New Moon.  All the room lights go off and I will turn off the cockpit floodlights.  With just the stars, you really have to focus on the HUD as it can be quite disorienting (imo).  LOL, I’ve even tried it with the “Major Thunderstorm” Wx theme, but I can’t claim yet to have done 5 in a row :-P.

My only real problem now is:  the landings aren’t being logged.  I’ve got a handsome number accomplished (as I can roughly tell by the flight time) but not one to my knowledge has been recorded in the logbook.  This is the case for both the “altered” and “unaltered” Carrier Practice Mission.  I mean I should be getting 5 per completion… but alas, none.  ???

Btw I did a dilettantish video of a Night Carrier Trap (I had to make it a full moon to record it, and even then it’s pretty dark… but it’s supposed to be… it’s night!).  You can see roughly what my cockpit view looks like… the adjusted “Radio Stack” view that I am using on final.  Again I use this view almost exclusively and no real switching of views is necessary for the entire circuit.  You can see my AOA is high, but this was before I started flying with 3600lbs of fuel or less.  At any rate I didn’t bang up the nose on those (crash tolerance slider was full right, and detect crashes/damage and aircraft stress causes damage is always enabled).

Here’s the link
   No comments as of yet like “Song a 10… Video a 2”.  It’s youtube… but I think I can trust you guys not to be brutal :-S  Btw, my camera operator is only 12 :-D

Keep workin’ on it Delta… keep ‘er on the centerline and you’ll get the hang of it.  Hope this stuff helps.

Rob O.


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SUBS17

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2008, 12:30:03 am »
dude, i dont use parking brakes when im at 150kts, or when im landing on a carrier, i just said that so you can picture what happens with the nose on arrested landings... looks like i'll have to make another movie to clarify this.

If you're perfectly lined up the aircraft doesn't roll, if you make a movie use the HUD only view.

micro

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2008, 03:48:13 am »
I am with you on this.  I wonder how many people fly full realistic with crash detection vs not in those videos.  My landing always do a nose dive and roll right in to the deck regardless of how perfect the approach was.  I did notice if I use the ailerons to correct the roll after I hit the deck, in some cases it helped keep the plane from fully rolling over.  It also makes a diference if I land with a lower gross weight as expected.  I still think the carrier landing is screwed up...I want to confirm this with a real f-18 pilot in which I may ping here real shortly.

Well, I wasn't a Hornet guy but I did my time in Tomcats (yep, that's me on the LSO platform). I've gotta say that the carrier ops are pretty accurate. As I said before, it just sounds like some of you aren't flying a good approach. People are coming in low, hot, and heavy. Every video that I've seen shows people WAY low. Fly the ball and you won't go wrong.

deltaleader

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2008, 05:49:35 pm »
Thanks Ozzie for the write up.  This gives me some more ammo to work with and I noticed in the video the nose was pointed more inline with the carrier direction than it was with the centerline of the deck.  I think that is where my problem is, I am trying to fly a more conventional approach down the centerline however, with the carrier in movement, I alway end up drifting and having to make bigger corrections.  I pretty much know I am struggling with a centerline landing and often come in at an angle.  I think I got my speed and descent rate down now. Just need to get my alignment under control.  I will let you guys know when I nail it (consistently).  Everyone has been really helpful here!
ex-Private Pilot, life long Flight Simmer...can't really tell you about my other hobbies...

deltaleader

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2008, 06:48:36 pm »
Alright!  Went back to the sim and finally completed the carrier landing practice mission.  Boltered a couple of times but none the less completed it!   ;D
ex-Private Pilot, life long Flight Simmer...can't really tell you about my other hobbies...

Great Ozzie

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #51 on: January 28, 2008, 03:36:34 am »
Excellent to hear Delta. :-D

And I want to thanks the Microbrewst for his excellent posts as some great information in there.  I meant mine as a "supplemental" to his.

And yes Microbrewst, I was certainly coming in low in my video (AOA was high).  But I had to!  Really!  I was new and didn't know what else to do!

I was going to say overweight too... unless there was a gross-wt increase from 34,000 lbs to 37,000lbs.  Now I do like I said and dump 2/3rds of that.

Like I was saying before, it was hard for me to determine my position on the glideslope with the zoom level I was using (particularly during the day) but now that a got a boatload of traps under my belt, things aren't happening so fast and I have more time to think about lineup.  I'm going to try what you say because...

I "know" you are right on about the meatball.  I fly low glideslope (cause it's easier to see!) and consistently trap the No. 1 wire (sometimes no.2).  Now that I know the "right" wire is the No. 3, I will be working hard to acquire the meatball and keep it centered on the datum lights.  Nothing else to do if I want to be promoted!

One more point Micro about landing speed (again folks, this man is on the money)... I found a checklist for the A-D models with a Landing Configuration of Full Flaps, AOA of 8.1 degrees at 27,000 lbs; Landing Approach Speed is 126 kts.  (ehem, did someone say this wasn't possible :-O ).  For every 1,000lbs above this one can add approx. 2 knots and be good to go.

Microbrewst, I do have one question for you sir (at least it is a hope)... you are a trusty Shellback, aren't you?  :o

Rob O.

SUBS17

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #52 on: January 28, 2008, 03:05:46 pm »
126kts is the superbugs approach speed(10kts less than the A and C model), 126kts will produce a high AoA in FSX and you just might hit the tail on the deck. There again if you like approaching at that speed its up to you.

Intrepid

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2008, 01:51:27 am »


Btw, to the person who posted the how to stop the head movement in VC... blessings be upon thee.



You are very welcome, I found it too distracting to leave in the sim,thanks for the extra info.The best I have been able to do so far was  3 good landings out of 5, I will try the fuel dumping,never even thought about that :-\
Randy

deltaleader

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2008, 02:01:03 am »
There is a lot of great information in this thread. I think it should be tacked in this forum????
« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 07:43:23 pm by deltaleader »
ex-Private Pilot, life long Flight Simmer...can't really tell you about my other hobbies...

SUBS17

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #55 on: January 29, 2008, 04:34:38 am »
I got a question regarding the IMC mission which I just completed there is reply to the LSO" 122 Hornet ball 146" its interesting that the wingman made that call yet the weight was 25605lbs anyone know where he gets that number? I know its for the wires setting but would like to know the correct setting for radio calls online.

Great Ozzie

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #56 on: January 29, 2008, 05:01:13 am »
SUBS17

"Onspeed AOA is approximately 136kts KCAS at 44,000lbs gross weight (max trap).  Subtract 1 1/2 KCAS for each 1,000lb decrease in gross weight."  (NATOPS flight manual for F/A-18E/F) so 126kts sounds correct for about a gross weight of 38,000lbs.

As per the F/A-18A/B/C/D NATOPS pocket checklist (01NOV04) for the given landing configuration I posted above, 126kts is the correct speed.  Fwiw, the chart shows Approach Speeds (given above config.) which vary from 119kts @ 24,000lbs GW to 151kts @ 39,000lbs GW. (this includes a +2kt allowance as the wingtip AIM-9s are off  ;) ).

From my FSX point of view:

I do not "like" approaching at this speed (126kts).  As I said before, I like to come out of my downwind turn at 135kts, then "fine tune" this speed based on the AOA indexer.  With the reduced fuel loads I have been using, this means in the ballpark of 130 kts.

You certainly won't crash at 126kts (as per your post on the 17th) and sink rate won't be too high (descent rate actually HAS to be lower if you're staying on glidepath).  AOA @ 126 kts (less than 2000 lbs. fuel) I noted to be about 8.8 degrees which reads "Slightly Slow" on the AOA Indexer and trapping at that speed will by no means put the tail in jeopardy of scrapping the flight deck.

Rob O.

Great Ozzie

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2008, 06:03:35 am »
I think that call out is "One point Six" which I think means 1600lbs fuel remaining.

Btw how did you determine that weight?

Rob O.

Great Ozzie

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #58 on: January 29, 2008, 09:32:44 am »
Hey Randy,

Man go out of the pattern at say 3000' (Severe Clear Wx theme) with just a couple thousand lbs. of fuel then...

Practice flying a pattern at different configurations.  You can start with say, the landing configuration (gear/full flaps/tailhook down).  Climb, say, 1000' at 150kts while doing a Level 180 turn.  Turn again 180 degrees while decelerating to 130kts.  Then set up at 130 kts (or "Onspeed" in the AOA Indexer... your choice) a descent at 500 to 600fpm.  This is how I taught my "real" flight students... I mean in the civilian world.  And to me, the principles are very much the same (Real World compared to FSX).  I mean whenever I checked out in a new type or make/model, I didn’t want to stay in the pattern.  I wanted to go out for an hour or so doing the so called “four-fundamentals” (climbs, turns, descents and level flight) at the various airspeeds I would be using.  This way when I got back to the traffic pattern, I could focus on landing, not on how to fly this new plane. 

The big thing you need to note here is: your power setting in each phase of flight and how the controls feel to you (meaning amount of control movement, trim input etc...).  Do that above practice enough so that you can do this "in your sleep" (i.e. you don't have to think about it... you just do it).  You make the pitch/power change for the new performance you want (say going from level 130kt flight to Onspeed 500fpm descent): once accomplished (listening to the engine pitch) you continue scanning, and in a few moments when your scan brings you back to the power setting (for me the %N2 in the EFD) you might be like... “Let me tweak that One %”.  Or you look at the AOA Indexer... “My pitch needs a slight decrease to get that Onspeed indication...”

Now when you come back to the Carrier Practice mission, the pitch/power settings for the traffic pattern will be caged in your head.  Then when you are on final and the AOA Indexer looks more like the blinking lights from last season's Christmas tree, you can be like, "I know my power is about right to give me (e.g.) a 600'fpm descent; and my pitch too, because at this weight I should have roughly such and such kts."  Then you can use the bulk of your brain's CPU focusing on the meatball and flight deck alignment, making the tiny corrections you need to stay aligned with the Carrier and on Glidepath.

Let me sum up (phew!) with the ol'

Pitch + Power = Performance

Airspeed (Pitch) + % N2 = Level/Climbing/Descending for a given Configuration (Gear, Flaps, Weight... etc)

(And NO NO NO we are not going to discuss pitching to FPM and Power for Airspeed!  This is enough :-P)

Seriously, you will be amazed how much easier it is when you know what power settings to use for a given phase of Flight.  You will see!

Rob O.

SUBS17

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Re: Carrier Landings
« Reply #59 on: January 29, 2008, 11:28:03 am »
I think that call out is "One point Six" which I think means 1600lbs fuel remaining.

Btw how did you determine that weight?

Rob O.

FPAS in the MFD