Author Topic: How to properly refuel the PMDG 737-800  (Read 10990 times)

WebMaximus

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How to properly refuel the PMDG 737-800
« on: September 28, 2022, 02:08:47 pm »
I know there have been lots of discussions around this but I still can't make it work correctly and according to what the documentation says on this subject.

I start with lets say 2500 kg. I call for the fuel truck which arrives and when asked to enter the desired fuel quantity, I put in lets say 7500 kg in the TOTAL KGS field in the PMDG FMC on the FUEL page.

Doing this, I see how the counter starts increasing on the fuel truck but it will only last for a couple of seconds before it says refueling is complete and the truck will drive away. I've made sure 'Always refuel progressively' is ticket and I've also made sure Detect custom aircraft system refueling is not checked. In the same way, I've made sure the show MSFS fuel dialogue is not checked on the aircraft config screen.

As I recall it, the problem might be how the TOTAL KGS field in the FMC isn't "monitored" by GSX but only the LEVEL field where you can enter a percentage of fuel. Would that explain why I can't make the refueling work correctly and if so, is there any way you can make sure also the TOTAL KGS field will be monitored in the same way as the LEVEL field? Since it's quite cumbersome not being able to put in the actual amount but instead having to try figure out how many percentage that will be based on the fuel required figure from the SimBrief OFP.

What would be truly awesome of course would be to have GSX use the fuel figure directly from the SB OFP but as I understand it, this only works with aircraft where you have checked to use the default MSFS fuel dialogue. Which shouldn't be used for the PMDG 737. I actually did try it just for testing purposes but never got the option to use the fuel figure from SimBrief. According to the manual, you should have an extra option for this in the menu. Maybe I misunderstood the manual?
Richard Åsberg

virtuali

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Re: How to properly refuel the PMDG 737-800
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2022, 04:33:37 pm »
If an airplane cannot be refueled by GSX, and the PMDG ( and the Fenix ), can't, so you can't use the GSX SimBrief fueling option, which only work if GSX is refueling the airplane.  If the airplane refuel itself, it's clear the SimBrief GSX refueling can't be used, since GSX is not really refueling.

How to refuel such airplanes has been discussed and answered (and of course there's a specific page on the manual too ) so many times, that we made a video about it:


WebMaximus

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Re: How to properly refuel the PMDG 737-800
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2022, 05:41:04 pm »
Thanks Umberto but I've already seen that video.

I'm not sure if you took the time to fully read my post above. Based on some of your comments, I think maybe you didn't. I suggest you read it one more time and you'll find how I'm well aware of the things you mention but also how I have a question for you/suggestion to maybe why it's not working for me. All about what field you're using in the FMC to put in the amount of fuel required.
Richard Åsberg

virtuali

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Re: How to properly refuel the PMDG 737-800
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2022, 05:43:59 pm »
All about what field you're using in the FMC to put in the amount of fuel required.

Well, you said I haven't read your post but, if you are asking this, it seems you haven't really saw the video, since which field is used in the FMC is surely shown there.

WebMaximus

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Re: How to properly refuel the PMDG 737-800
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2022, 06:26:25 pm »
Would have been so much quicker and easier if you simply replied to my actual question, don't you think?

"As I recall it, the problem might be how the TOTAL KGS field in the FMC isn't "monitored" by GSX but only the LEVEL field where you can enter a percentage of fuel. Would that explain why I can't make the refueling work correctly and if so, is there any way you can make sure also the TOTAL KGS field will be monitored in the same way as the LEVEL field? Since it's quite cumbersome not being able to put in the actual amount but instead having to try figure out how many percentage that will be based on the fuel required figure from the SimBrief OFP."

As mentioned in my post, it's quite cumbersome to translate KGS to a percentage on every flight. I'm not even sure why you decided to use the percentage field instead of the total field? I like to think many of us and especially when using SimBrief will put in an actual value rather than a percentage of fuel.
Richard Åsberg

Leopardo Di Cardio

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Re: How to properly refuel the PMDG 737-800
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2022, 08:12:23 pm »
Would have been so much quicker and easier if you simply replied to my actual question, don't you think?

"As I recall it, the problem might be how the TOTAL KGS field in the FMC isn't "monitored" by GSX but only the LEVEL field where you can enter a percentage of fuel. Would that explain why I can't make the refueling work correctly and if so, is there any way you can make sure also the TOTAL KGS field will be monitored in the same way as the LEVEL field? Since it's quite cumbersome not being able to put in the actual amount but instead having to try figure out how many percentage that will be based on the fuel required figure from the SimBrief OFP."

As mentioned in my post, it's quite cumbersome to translate KGS to a percentage on every flight. I'm not even sure why you decided to use the percentage field instead of the total field? I like to think many of us and especially when using SimBrief will put in an actual value rather than a percentage of fuel.

I have to agree with WebMaximus, because the refueling procedure has not interested me in using it yet. Simbrief shows me the value in KGS just as I have the KGS set in FMC. Unfortunately, I did not find anywhere the possibility to find a change in GSX of these units such as the KGS/LBS option in FMC.
I create a flight in Simbrief and I know that Block Fuel = 7284KGS - will be needed.
Once I manually fill it, it's done. If I were to use a refueling truck, either enter the percentages in LBS or Custom, the car will then just drive off and it's done, so nothing much. Therefore, the only question is why I only fill in the percentages and not the total volume of fuel in KGS which will be loaded for the flight? Or is it not possible? It doesn't seem to me that it depends only on the percentages when refueling in the Level item.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2022, 08:23:19 pm by syphax »

WebMaximus

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Re: How to properly refuel the PMDG 737-800
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2022, 12:03:21 am »
Care to comment on this one Umberto and whether you could allow to also use the TOTAL KGS field for the reason mentioned?
Richard Åsberg

WebMaximus

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Re: How to properly refuel the PMDG 737-800
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2022, 02:54:16 am »
I'm sure there's a reason why you didn't already design it like this but I was just thinking to myself, wouldn't it be possible for GSX to calculate the percentage required by itself and then based on that calculation, determine for how long the fuel truck should stay?

GSX already has access to the SimBrief OFP where it can see the amount of fuel required. Let's say 7500 kgs is required.

GSX could then divide that amount of fuel by the total fuel capacity for the aircraft type currently loaded. Such as the PMDG 737-800 with a fuel capacity of 20.891 kgs. Resulting in 35.9%

The huge benefit of using such a method would be how you no longer need to worry about which field in the FMC is used. Based on how GSX already has all info required and can start the refueling process automatically.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2022, 03:05:42 am by WebMaximus »
Richard Åsberg

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Re: How to properly refuel the PMDG 737-800
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2022, 07:56:18 am »
I'm sure there's a reason why you didn't already design it like this but I was just thinking to myself, wouldn't it be possible for GSX to calculate the percentage required by itself and then based on that calculation, determine for how long the fuel truck should stay?

GSX already has access to the SimBrief OFP where it can see the amount of fuel required. Let's say 7500 kgs is required.

GSX could then divide that amount of fuel by the total fuel capacity for the aircraft type currently loaded. Such as the PMDG 737-800 with a fuel capacity of 20.891 kgs. Resulting in 35.9%

The huge benefit of using such a method would be how you no longer need to worry about which field in the FMC is used. Based on how GSX already has all info required and can start the refueling process automatically.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Do it the other way around... don't put the percentages but the total number of fuel, from which the percentages are then calculated to the total capacity. If the GSX can read from the Simbrief, I think it's an easy thing for Umberto or this  edit. The refueling truck would then be used immediately and clearly with the data of the total amount of fuel for the given flight.

WebMaximus

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Re: How to properly refuel the PMDG 737-800
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2022, 08:01:27 am »
Ah, sorry. Didn't understand that but read your last post as if you suggested to use the other field in the FMC to "sense" when the refueling should start.

Well, let's wait to see what Umberto has to say about this.
Richard Åsberg

virtuali

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Re: How to properly refuel the PMDG 737-800
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2022, 08:48:00 am »
All your comments really makes me wonder if you really understood how GSX works, when the airplane refuels itself, because it really seems you haven't. Particularly all the reference about what "Units GSX should use", or if it should use a percentage level or an absolute quantity.

When the airplane is refueling itself ( "show default fuel/cargo dialog option Disabled, as in our default config for the PMDG 737 ), GSX doesn't use or care about which method you use to INCREASE the fuel quantity:

- If the airplane allows you to set the fuel quantity as a percentage, GSX won't care, as long the fuel quantity on board INCREASED after the Truck went in position.

- If the airplane allows you to set the fuel quantity as a Level in Kgs, GSX won't care, as long the fuel quantity on board INCREASED after the Truck went in position.

- If the airplane allows you to set the fuel quantity as a Level in Lbs, GSX won't care, as long the fuel quantity on board INCREASED after the Truck went in position.

GSX Fuel system read data from the simulator in USGAL, the trucks have their capacity expressed in USGAL and their pump performance (which ONLY is used to calculate how much time the Truck should stay when the "Always Refuel Progressively" option is Enabled but the airplane has loaded itself "Instantly ) is expressed in GPM ( USGALS/minute ).

This means, no matter which method or unity of measure the *airplane* let you use it, it won't make the slightest difference to GSX, since it's only reading data from the simulator in USGAL, and it calculates values only based on that, an increase is an increase so, as long you follow the procedure that has been explained so many times, including in the above video, GSX will always detect a Fuel increase IF it really happened in the airplane, and will show the Truck for as long it would have taken IF GSX was actually refueling, which is simply the amount of the INCREASE detected, converted into and USGALS, divided by the performance figure of the truck, which is expressed in GPM. That will be the amount of minutes the truck will stay.

How SimBrief has anything to do with this ? NOTHING, of course.

When the airplane "refuels itself" (again: "show default fuel/cargo dialog option Disabled, as in our default config for the PMDG 73 ) , unless the airplane KNOWS about your SimBrief flight plan by itself, you just can't use GSX SimBrief integration because the airplane is REFUELING ITSELF! so, whatever SimBrief integration you can ( or can't ) use, it won't have anything to do with GSX.

Because it seems to me, that by discussing about "GSX Units of measures" or "Simbrief", you changed the GSX internal configuration to Enabled GSX Refueling over an airplane that can't be refueled by GSX, like the PMDG. There is a reason why that option is Disabled by default, and it's just because while it might *appear* to kinda-work, in fact the PMDG doesn't expect to be refueled externally, resulting in several inconsistencies in its own menus, that's why we set the option to Disabled. With the Fenix A320 is completely impossible to Fuel the airplane from GSX, since it's likely using a completely custom fuel system that GSX just can't touch.

Basically, you can't just force GSX to refuel an airplane that *cannot* be refueled, as a way to use GSX SimBrief integration to be added to an airplane that doesn't have one. Or, more precisely, to be added to an airplane that doesn't have one AND cannot be refueled by GSX.

Because yes, of course, if the airplane you use has a 100% standard fuel system, it CAN be refueled by GSX, and in that case, you'll see the GSX refuel menu which has a series of pre-set quantities AND an extra SimBrief option, with the exact quantity you had on the flightplan.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2022, 08:50:16 am by virtuali »

WebMaximus

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Re: How to properly refuel the PMDG 737-800
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2022, 09:46:37 am »
Umberto,

As I've been trying to tell you so many times now, using the TOTAL KGS field in the PMDG FMC to increase the fuel level, the GSX fuel truck will drive away within seconds. If I however use the LEVEL field in the PMDG FMC where you're putting in a percentage to increase the fuel level, the GSX fuel truck will stay for as long as expected and based on the logic you explain.

Hence the question, would it be possible to make GSX also detect the increased amount of fuel when using the TOTAL KGS field?

Again based on what you say, I don't see why that doesn't already work. Since regardless of what field you use to increase the amount of fuel, it will still be an increase. The way it's working now though, it only works like you explain when using the LEVEL field in the PMDG FMC. Using the TOTAL KGS field, the GSX fuel truck will drive away seconds after you put in the new value.
Richard Åsberg

virtuali

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Re: How to properly refuel the PMDG 737-800
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2022, 09:53:37 am »
Umberto, question, would it be possible to make GSX also detect the increased amount of fuel when using the TOTAL KGS field?

As I think I explained so many times, GSX doesn't have the slightest knowledge of which page or method or unit of measure you use in the airplane when the airplane is refueling itself, it JUST monitors the total fuel quantity and wait for an increase.

If the fuel truck went away immediately, the only possible reasons are:

- you haven't set a fuel quantity larger then the one you had when you called the GSX Truck AFTER you saw the message to do so.

OR

- you did, but for some reason, when using *that* particular menu, the airplane hasn't really increased the fuel quantity.


WebMaximus

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Re: How to properly refuel the PMDG 737-800
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2022, 10:58:13 am »
Have you tried this yourself with the PMDG?

None of the possible reasons you mention are true. I'm positive I increased the fuel level after I was asked to do so by GSX and I'm equally positive the fuel level did increase. Since I was able to get to my destination and saw the correct amount of fuel in the aircraft.
Richard Åsberg

virtuali

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Re: How to properly refuel the PMDG 737-800
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2022, 11:52:29 am »
Have you tried this yourself with the PMDG?

I tried it in the way I shown in the video, that works, and so it will work any other method, as long the airplane fuel quantity really changes, GSX doesn't even know HOW or WHY it changed.

Quote
None of the possible reasons you mention are true. I'm positive I increased the fuel level after I was asked to do so by GSX and I'm equally positive the fuel level did increase. Since I was able to get to my destination and saw the correct amount of fuel in the aircraft.

As I've said, GSX will read the standard variables for the total fuel quantity on board, no matter the method used to change those so, if you are sure you did everything correctly on your side, the only possible explanation left is, using different FMC menu options will result ( or not ) in those variables changing, but since those are the only ones GSX can see, there's nothing we can do to affect  this behavior, other than suggesting to use a FMC workflow that has been tested to work, which was the whole point of the video.