Author Topic: Standard Left/Right pushback  (Read 4238 times)

QFA1213

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Standard Left/Right pushback
« on: September 17, 2019, 06:07:59 am »
Hi Umberto,

While I understand that GSX is moving towards a more advanced AFCAD independent system for pushbacks, the recent updates have made the standard default left/right pushbacks, even at default airports with default aircraft, produce unsatisfactory results when using large aircraft.

As per this thread: http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,21343.0.html I assume the 6th August 2019 update change addressed this issue
Quote
Change: Default Pushback strategy is moving the default Approach node automatically if it’s too far from the airplane, which should improve the curve radius when pushing very large airplanes.

As per this thread: http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,21287.0.html, you mentioned that you tested a standard right pushback from default Singapore cargo parking 2. I completed this pushback using both the default A321 and B744 (Built in profile only) with the default Singapore (No Profile) and the error still occured.

Aircraft: Default FSX B744 (Copied into P3D for testing, using built in profile only)
Scenery: Default WSSS Cargo Parking 2 (No profile)
Pushback: Standard Right
Sim: Prepar3D V4.5 Hotfix 1

Result: Aircraft pushes onto grass during turn (Both right main and nose gear).

https://opq0qq.dm.files.1drv.com/y4mvkGuYhJA2O_KUtwX5fWgPZv-Etw-i6gS5mYVV9nx13O8_yF_X3mACkqgZ7K4yAW_5M7iAM7fK9mtdL_qEBCYhKq8trTpnGkugv9lpddm07MX18-Q1esAmLU-_nskg1HrasxON7IWjvH2aXXXCU4VAsa5-P_WlsMZqIc1TI7CO4oUGC4XtW0mvzTll4ZzQLP4-n65siYQa2jVD_HWDwXaQA?width=640&height=339&cropmode=none

https://1l5coa.dm.files.1drv.com/y4mWM1qwaiUa7GOhY-3_-2FNhw8iNkC47OmKe6L-udvOf-W0VCj3p5L77QGF6zn8FAdrsQCMh_DHzJHYWjopq0c8FXiB0q9yQCVQPkXSD5scX1fPkUpMcsyokiZsMUXlNnnGNDQU6rsSDtUGWpYkSv3WpCOra3pcKY8Sko8SJkIEzobAHyQjBLU4_HIHqqzs0YcsQiY_8aFW01ZuUo0nGJA0w?width=640&height=339&cropmode=none

------------------------------

As I understand from the other threads, aircraft length is a factor effecting the turn so below shows the default A321 which works perfectly.


Aircraft: Default FSX A321 (Copied into P3D for testing, using built in profile only)
Scenery: Default WSSS Cargo Parking 2 (No profile)
Pushback: Standard Right
Sim: Prepar3D V4.5 Hotfix 1


https://yndrrq.dm.files.1drv.com/y4mwItgg7geiSquSiOrGyCONbExbmuC6ouz4O1vFgPNXJHIBRlshOnNLGzfahYuQQjbhtMBminVDirD22oeEHkWXZb3xs1UecB9gM0hD3CfiVdMOSW6jOzMaytxZYfsHGGjXqTE7dbCwV8a776rN7wyQdHp22rg_BXywBUoqIFThrR9kaF9On-z4pgDsrEzXJ97P7f1x9T-YqdgZhlsfnk-qQ?width=640&height=339&cropmode=none


I also tested with the Default 747 at two other default airports with the same result:

Aircraft: Default FSX B744 (Copied into P3D for testing, using built in profile only)
Scenery 1: Default EDDF E9 (No profile)
Scenery 2: Default KLAX Gate 76 (No profile)
Sim: Prepar3D V4.5 Hotfix 1


Thanks
Brendan
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 09:03:32 am by virtuali »

virtuali

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Re: Standard Left/Right pushback
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2019, 09:06:17 am »
Quote
While I understand that GSX is moving towards a more advanced AFCAD independent system for pushbacks, the recent updates have made the standard default left/right pushbacks, even at default airports with default aircraft, produce unsatisfactory results when using large aircraft.

I suggest waiting for the next update, in which you will see the actual route in the QuickEdit mode, which will always match the performed one, so no guesswork will be required anymore.

QFA1213

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Re: Standard Left/Right pushback
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2019, 01:51:16 pm »
I understand that the pushback preview is being added but I would still think that the unedited standard left/right pushbacks should work flawlessly at default airports. Perhaps QuickEdit should be the only option by default and that left/right (or named equivalents) only appear when/if a QuickEdit is saved if they aren't guaranteed to work. Alternatively, as the validity of a pushback is checked in the next update, perhaps a similar check could be run prior to any saved/legacy pushback being began and if not possible offer a prompt to complete a QuickEdit pushback?

In any case, even if the editor can test the validity of the pushback, surely the user shouldn't have to tweak all pushbacks created with the legacy system to ensure large aircraft compatibility with the new pushback logic.

virtuali

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Re: Standard Left/Right pushback
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2019, 02:16:57 pm »
Perhaps QuickEdit should be the only option by default and that left/right (or named equivalents) only appear when/if a QuickEdit is saved if they aren't guaranteed to work.

I don't see how hiding the Left/Right pushback would change anything. If you want to assume the QuickEdit it's the new default, just use it...

Quote
In any case, even if the editor can test the validity of the pushback, surely the user shouldn't have to tweak all pushbacks created with the legacy system to ensure large aircraft compatibility with the new pushback logic.

Why you think old pushback won't work ? With the today's update we reverted to the old logic, the new QuickEdit mode it's *just* a better visual interface to really see what's going on.

downscc

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Re: Standard Left/Right pushback
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2019, 06:57:38 pm »
Why you think old pushback won't work ? With the today's update we reverted to the old logic, the new QuickEdit mode it's *just* a better visual interface to really see what's going on.

Big thanks goes out to you for today's update.  The ability to see the pushback path in the unsnapped mode is perfect.  This also fixed a problem I had with previous updates, which seem to have broke the pushback in B748 whereas the aircraft would do two loops on the back.  Now the unsnap is working very well.  The snap to AFCAD still overshoots with large body such as B748, by about 30 ft, but selecting the unsnap mode and moving the node where the curve begins in towards the parking spot, but still behind the aircraft, works very well.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 07:08:36 pm by downscc »

QFA1213

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Re: Standard Left/Right pushback
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2019, 04:40:36 am »
I don't see how hiding the Left/Right pushback would change anything. If you want to assume the QuickEdit it's the new default, just use it...
That suggestion of hiding and the assumption of QuickEdit as new default was because the impression given from videos/posts is that all focus is on the new system despite the issues this has introduced with the older system.
While I understand that GSX is moving towards a more advanced AFCAD independent system for pushbacks, the recent updates have made the standard default left/right pushbacks, even at default airports with default aircraft, produce unsatisfactory results when using large aircraft.
As per this thread: http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,21343.0.html I assume the 6th August 2019 update change addressed this issue
Quote
Change: Default Pushback strategy is moving the default Approach node automatically if it’s too far from the airplane, which should improve the curve radius when pushing very large airplanes.
As per this thread: http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,21287.0.html, you mentioned that you tested a standard right pushback from default Singapore cargo parking 2. I completed this pushback using both the default A321 and B744 (Built in profile only) with the default Singapore (No Profile) and the error still occurred.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why you think old pushback won't work ? With the today's update we reverted to the old logic, the new QuickEdit mode it's *just* a better visual interface to really see what's going on.
The reason I said that is because my test scenario (WSSS 747 and numerous others in first post) with everything stock failed. Note even with the latest update the above still failed, as shown further down.

I’ve been thinking about how to explain my view on the issue in more concise manner and came to a pretty similar view to the above post which uses the better terminology (Snapped, unsnapped).

Snapped system:
•   Current form does not handle large aircraft (starts turn too late)
•   Thus, for large aircraft to achieve a satisfactory push:
o   Simple pushes require a conversion to unsnapped
o   Complicated pushes are not possible until extra nodes are added
•   Ideally the preview system should show pushback path instead of just AFCAD nodes/link

Note same issue as this thread: http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,21994.0.html
Result of Snapped System at WSSS Cargo Parking 2 after latest update:


^ Doesn’t show actual path



^ Still results in same undesirable path as prior to most recent update


-----------------------------------------------------


Unsnapped System:
The validity testing model seems a bit off
1.   Paths that seem “reasonable” all red
2.   “reasonable” looking red path tested and worked
3.   Green paths are often very strange
4.   Tested Green strange path failed
5.   Green path work but node(?) placement not expected position

1.   Paths that seem “reasonable” all red
Only two paths below shown of the many tested:





2.   “reasonable” looking red path tested and worked
This pushback although red works exactly as shown without issues




3.   Green paths are often very strange
Considering the above paths show as failing, the following paths should be failing before the above do



Note the position of the corner node relative to the path:



4.   Tested Green strange path failed
Obviously from the path this will not work but was tested as green







5.   Green path work but node(?) placement not expected position
I have noticed that if the final position is placed on the wrong side of the parking spot (For right push, position on left facing left) then the pushback works without major error on all aircraft types



Actual pushback using this:




Note only issue with this is as the aircraft is on the wrong side of the parking spot, the tug drives off through the aircraft.



-------------------------------------------------


Hopefully this information allows the two pushback modes logic to be refined.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 04:42:31 am by QFA1213 »

Guenseli

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Re: Standard Left/Right pushback
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2019, 08:05:42 am »
"Hopefully this information allows the two pushback modes logic to be refined."

Great analysis and work! thanks!
+1

virtuali

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Re: Standard Left/Right pushback
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2019, 08:55:43 am »
That suggestion of hiding and the assumption of QuickEdit as new default was because the impression given from videos/posts is that all focus is on the new system despite the issues this has introduced with the older system.

As I've said, the QuickEdit hasn't introduced any issues to the default pushback. Those changes were made BEFORE the QuickEdit was released, to fix lots problems of airplanes doing a 180 around the nosegear.

Quote
As per this thread: http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,21343.0.html I assume the 6th August 2019 update change addressed this issue

Exactly, way before the QuickEdit.

Quote
As per this thread: http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,21287.0.html, you mentioned that you tested a standard right pushback from default Singapore cargo parking 2. I completed this pushback using both the default A321 and B744 (Built in profile only) with the default Singapore (No Profile) and the error still occurred. The reason I said that is because my test scenario (WSSS 747 and numerous others in first post) with everything stock failed. Note even with the latest update the above still failed, as shown further down.

Ok, I tested it and you are right, I think we just reverted the code as always was since 2012 in the latest version, under the principle that "Snapped should works as always was", without moving anything. So, this was a Pushback GSX was never capable to do automatically, until the August 6th update.

The issue is, I fear that putting that tweak back in, would break the automatic pushback in other situations.

Quote
Snapped system:

•   Ideally the preview system should show pushback path instead of just AFCAD nodes/link

We deliberately chose NOT to do that, because it wouldn't make much sense showing a path in which you don't have any control over it. The whole point of showing a path is to give you some feedback how moving the Corner node would change the path but, if you can't do that, it's useless. If you want control, don't use Snap.


Quote
The validity testing model seems a bit off

It's not "off", it's only testing for a specific problem, not all of them and even that problem might not always be a problem for sure, it might just be a calculation error which is so small it wouldn't be noticeable visually, but it still register as an error. Use your common sense, if a red path looks good, it will probably work.

Exactly, we chose to test only a single sure condition of problems, but that alone might not always cause an actual problem, just a less than perfectly smooth pushback.


Quote
3.   Green paths are often very strange
4.   Tested Green strange path failed
5.   Green path work but node(?) placement not expected position

Same as above, use your common sense, if a green path looks bad, it will probably not work.

We'll try to make the red/green detection more reliable, by adding more checks

QFA1213

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Re: Standard Left/Right pushback
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2019, 09:48:34 am »
As I've said, the QuickEdit hasn't introduced any issues to the default pushback. Those changes were made BEFORE the QuickEdit was released, to fix lots problems of airplanes doing a 180 around the nosegear.

I've gone back through the changelog and you are correct in that it wasn't QuickEdit. In reality it's the June 30th Major Update (PBR) which introduced the issues when adding the new system (which is what I was referring to over QuickEdit). My point was more just that this new mode has been further developed since then without completely resolving the side effects of that update. In any case, I think we both understand each other on this now.

Quote
NEW: Custom Pushback improved, with visual customization in the editor, using two modes, Snap to AFCAD lines and Free mode.




The issue is, I fear that putting that tweak back in, would break the automatic pushback in other situations.
We deliberately chose NOT to do that, because it wouldn't make much sense showing a path in which you don't have any control over it. The whole point of showing a path is to give you some feedback how moving the Corner node would change the path but, if you can't do that, it's useless. If you want control, don't use Snap.


That was part of the reason for suggesting showing a path for snapped/AFCAD pushbacks. I've been playing with GSX pushbacks for at least four years now and the pushback system has always battled with poorly designed AFCADs with nodes too close together.

For example in 2015 I made this post relating to Orbx Melbourne: http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,12421.msg94308.html

While the system was tweaked as a result of that thread, it wasn't perfect and as noted in the thread, it fixed it for some bays and not for others.

These pictures were linked in that 2015 thread to show that the fix wasn't perfect:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f6/Qantas737pilot/2015-9-10_20-10-8-681_zpsxp6tij3o.png
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f6/Qantas737pilot/2015-9-10_20-11-19-717_zpse0kjjjuj.png


So because the path used by the AFCAD system is out of the user controller (Unless they get into AFCAD tweaking which I did and even so couldn't resolve all issues), this seems to me like a better reason to at least validate (And as you say, visually/common sense is the best way) AFCAD pushbacks. I definitely would appreciate to know if a pushback would be successful or not prior to it physically going through the procedure. Which links back to my earlier suggestion of maybe testing every pushback prior to it running and prompting if it suspects an error might occur. I believe for most GSX users, reliability of the pushback system means a lot towards their general attitude towards the program.

Same as above, use your common sense, if a green path looks bad, it will probably not work.

We'll try to make the red/green detection more reliable, by adding more checks

I completely agree that common sense should prevail. I just felt like the current red/green seemed to be the inverse of what was expected during 90 degree pushbacks.

Thanks
Brendan
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 09:57:04 am by virtuali »

virtuali

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Re: Standard Left/Right pushback
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2019, 11:56:23 am »
Try Live Update again now, I added a sort of intermediate tweak, so the approach node is automatically moved closer to the airplane ( resulting in a tighter curve ), but not as close as in the August 6th update, but this is enough to allow a good pushback for a 747 at WSSS Cargo 2.

QFA1213

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Re: Standard Left/Right pushback
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2019, 12:34:52 pm »
I don't think it's come through yet.

Tried live update a couple of times:
First time got __init__.pye and followMe.pye.
Later attempts followMe.pye downloaded again for some reason.

virtuali

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Re: Standard Left/Right pushback
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2019, 01:19:20 pm »
It might just be your local Cloudflare node still not updated, try again and it should eventually come.

QFA1213

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Re: Standard Left/Right pushback
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2019, 01:53:07 pm »
Success, pushback works much better now  :D






I am still getting that followMe.pye showing up as downloaded though, not sure if that means much to you.

virtuali

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Re: Standard Left/Right pushback
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2019, 02:04:20 pm »
I am still getting that followMe.pye showing up as downloaded though, not sure if that means much to you.

Must be a Cloudflare outdated glitch, that file wasn't updated today, but a couple of days ago, it might eventually sort it out.