Author Topic: Jetway gets removed when calling for boarding  (Read 4263 times)

disco79stu

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Jetway gets removed when calling for boarding
« on: September 19, 2022, 11:03:46 pm »
So I have this strange issue at some airports.
I load my situation at the gate, choose "operate jetway" in GSX, jetway connects.
Then I call for boarding, and what happens is, that the jetways now gets removed again.
I then have either no passenger models at all OR passengers just walking through the air.

When I choose to prepare for pushback, the jetways won't be removed. It's strange...
Baggage and pushback is working normally.

Is there something I have to set in order to avoid this?

Thanks
« Last Edit: September 20, 2022, 02:57:59 pm by disco79stu »

Rafal

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Re: Gate gets removed when calling for boarding
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2022, 11:48:42 pm »
Hi, Stu!

I guess you are doubling the jetway request, as boarding includes attaching the jetway.
Have you tried just calling for boarding? It should work fine.
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Copper

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Re: Gate gets removed when calling for boarding
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2022, 11:56:36 pm »
In my experience GSX only operates the Jetway if it's not in the correct state already.
Usually I use the Fenix EFB to attach a jetway as soon as I load into the aircaft since sitting on board without jetway being attached is illogical.
Requesting boarding then does not detach the jetway, the boarding just starts without the animation as expected.

One just needs to make sure that the Jetway is connected before requesting boarding, I'm not sure what happens if you operate jetways and request boarding before the jetway is finished attaching...

@disco79stu:
Could you tell which airport (also if 3rd party scenery, which one), which gate, which GSX profile and which aircraft you're using where this behavior can be reproduced?
Since it doesn't happen everywhere for you, maybe it's scenery related.

disco79stu

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Re: Gate gets removed when calling for boarding
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2022, 12:37:03 am »
Usually I use the Fenix EFB to attach a jetway as soon as I load into the aircaft since sitting on board without jetway being attached is illogical.
Requesting boarding then does not detach the jetway, the boarding just starts without the animation as expected.

One just needs to make sure that the Jetway is connected before requesting boarding, I'm not sure what happens if you operate jetways and request boarding before the jetway is finished attaching...

@disco79stu:
Could you tell which airport (also if 3rd party scenery, which one), which gate, which GSX profile and which aircraft you're using where this behavior can be reproduced?
Since it doesn't happen everywhere for you, maybe it's scenery related.

That's exactly my flow as well, and I am 100% sure that the gate is connected well before I call for boarding... .
And it usually works... But at some airports, it's not acting right, sometimes even while deboarding. Somehow, GSX doesn't always recognize the state the jetway is in, so it seems to me. It CAN move it, but won't know if it's connected or retracted.

As an example, Simwings' EDDM Gate A248 (made a quick video):



Jetway connects, upon calling for passengers it disconnects, passenger models never show.
(other times they DO show but will walk through the air)





« Last Edit: September 20, 2022, 12:43:12 am by disco79stu »

AndyCYXU

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Re: Gate gets removed when calling for boarding
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2022, 06:31:36 am »
Do not operate jetway, just ask for boarding and GSX will connect it by itself. Seems GSX doesn't know if jetway is connected or disconnected so when you call for boarding it simply "changes the state of jetway" not actually knowing what state jetway is in.

As for passengers not appearing sometimes it has to do with stairs being disable, they were suppose to fix it but it is still a bug and when staris are disabled passengers/pilot/crew will not show, but that's another issue.

SO yeah man for jetway do not use "operate jetway" it's broken

Do what you did on the video just right away do "Request boarding"

disco79stu

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Re: Gate gets removed when calling for boarding
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2022, 06:58:48 am »
Do not operate jetway, just ask for boarding

Do what you did on the video just right away do "Request boarding"

Thanks for chiming in, but that is no real option for me.
I want the jetway to be connected during flight prepapration, it just looks strange having a plane sitting at the gate without jetway connected. Especially when I am „on board“ :)
So yeah, I‘ll rather quickly re-connect the jetway after I called the passengers….
Just wanted to know if this is some GSX bug or a limitation of certain 3rd party scenery etc…. And if there‘s a way to possibly fix it.

Thx

virtuali

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Re: Gate gets removed when calling for boarding
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2022, 09:37:59 am »
Just wanted to know if this is some GSX bug or a limitation of certain 3rd party scenery etc…. And if there‘s a way to possibly fix it.

Whenever you see something weird happening with Jetways and GSX, it's almost invariably either a limitation of the sim/SDK or some issues recognizing the scenery. Some facts:

- The SDK doesn't provide any way to have a list of jetways, even in the upcoming Navdata API, the only information we'll get is if a parking *has* a jetway ( true/false ), but no extra information about it, which is clearly not enough for GSX to work properly, since we need to know about the jetway position. Right now, we get this information by reading the scenery .BGL file.

- The SDK doesn't provide any way to know the docked/undocked status of a jetway. We must infer it by checking one of the variables the SDK *does* provide and, in our case, we check if the cover/hood has moved ahead, and from this information we derive if a jetway docked. To read these variables, we need the actual SimObject that represents the jetway in the scene, because you need to have an handle to SimObject to read any data from it.

- Putting the two previous points together, means GSX needs to FIND Jetways, which is what it does when entering an airport.

- The SDK doesn't give any information or provide for any filter to exclude non-Jetway objects during a search, and Jetways don't have a separate Category the Simconnect "search for objects" call requires. We can search for AI planes, Ground vehicles, Boats, Animals, etc, but we can't search for Jetways, meaning we need to search ALL Simobjects in the area. This means we need to have a way to know if a found object is a Boat, an Animal or...a Jetway.

- The SDK has a bug that, unless you search in a radius of more than 20000 meters ( 20001 it's enough ), Jetways won't appear in the list of objects found. So we need to set a search radius that large, meaning we need to then filter out Jetways over a potentially large list of objects, when we could have simply searched in a limited radius around the airplane, if it wasn't for this bug.

- Putting the two previous points together, means in order to know if a found object is in fact a Jetway, we need to MATCH its position against the position we "know" a Jetway is supposed to be, which we obtained by reading the airport .BGL file. If a found object is in the same position as the jetway we found in the .BGL, we can safely assume that object must be a Jetway. Well "safely", as long the scenery doesn't have another object placed exactly in the same spot as the jetway...

That the first challenge: finding Jetways, which would work so much more reliably if the SDK just gave us with a list of Jetways and where they are, but that would be too easy...and this means, if for some reason the airport .BGL can't be read ( either it's encrypted, or another scenery is read in its place for some reason ), we can't MATCH the Jetway data in the scenery with the Jetway SimObject in the scene, the one we need to know IF a jetway is docked.

So, assuming GSX managed to bypass all these obstacles, and DID find the right Jetway Simobject, we are onto the next task, which is knowing IF a jetway is docked or not, so the SDK limitations in this area are that we don't have a variable to know if a jetway is docked or not, we only a variable to know if it's moving ( but not in which direction, meaning we don't know if it's extending or retracting ) and we have some variables we can read about the Jetway HOOD ( the cover ), that's the only things we have, so we used the variable for the Hood and, if they have been extended and the jetway is not moving, we can "safely" assume the Jetway must have docked.

"Safely", as long the Hood extends properly and of course if the right Jetway object has been found, as explained in all the previous points before.

All of this means, that GSX won't be able to recognize the Jetway docked/undocked status, unless ALL the previous hurdles in finding jetways and their object have been resolved.


"But I can operate the Jetway from GSX, that means it must have found the right jetway!"

Well, no. Fact you can operate from GSX doesn't mean much, because GSX is not really "operating" anything. What that menu option does, is just sending the standard command to trigger a Jetway to the sim. It's the simulator that really operates a jetway, not GSX, which is just blindly sending that toggle command.

And of course, the other SDK limitation we have here, is that command is a "Toggle", instead of a proper On/Off command. Toggle commands are limited and they are hated by all airplane developers and developers in general that must do drivers for hardware, so many commands have been changed from their "Toggle" form, to an alternative On/Off format, meaning one can just send an "ON" command to the (example) the Autopilot, and it will turn On if it's Off, but it won't turn Off if it's On, as it would be if it was a "Toggle" command. But with Jetways being the forsaken child of the SDK, their trigger command is only available as a Toggle, meaning we need to know the actual docked/undocked status of a jetway before we can safely send a Trigger command to animate it. So, read all the previous explanation about finding the right Jetway object in the scene.


And of course, as explained so many times, the SDK doesn't give ANY way to know WHERE the jetway ended up when docked. Resulting in "passengers walking in the air", if the Jetway docked to the wrong door, because they only thing we can do from GSX, is HOPING it has docked on the Main Exit and it hasn't docked partially, both conditions we can't check, so we can only create passengers based on that assumption.

And of course, as explained so many times, the jetway sometimes APPEARS to "retract" itself. It hasn't really retracted, as far the simulator is concerned, the jetway is still docked, but due to a LOD BUG, it loses sync across different LODs which shows the jetway in the retracted position when going in/out with the camera. This will also result in "passengers walking in the air", of course they do, they are walking on the correct path, it's just the jetway *appeared* to disconnect itself so, depending on the user reaction, he might either assume GSX has a bug that result in passengers "walking in the air", or he might assume GSX has a bug and disconnected the jetway for no reason ( it hasn't, it's just a LOD bug )

That's all the hurdles GSX has to contend with each time it works with a Jetway. Think about those, next time you see something unexpected appearing with Jetway, before assuming "GSX has a bug".

In any case, I tried default EDDM, which use the GSX default replacement model, selected "Operate Jetways", waited for the jetway to dock, then I selected "Boarding" and, of course, the jetway stayed connected as it should so yes, I can confirm that, PASSING ALL THE PREVIOUS ISSUES ( knowing where Jetways are in the airport file AND finding them in the scene by matching their positions ), when GSX CAN detect the docked/undocked status of a Jetway, it works as expected, so there's no "bug" in the OPERATE Jetway function.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2022, 09:43:56 am by virtuali »

disco79stu

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Re: Gate gets removed when calling for boarding
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2022, 01:21:54 pm »
Thanks for the very detailed explanation.
I guess, the "toggle" aspect you mentioned might be what's happening wing SimWing's EDDM. I believe I also had this at Orbx LIEO, where I docked the jetway via GSX upon arrival, and it got removed again when I started deboarding. I also tried to get some info from AS, but well, they blame FSDT of course. I don't know, I don't have the time nor the brain to figure this all out.
 
All in all, more me personally, this all has gotten very complicated. Flight Simulation always involved some tweaking, juggling with files and configs and inis, modifying files/code, etc. to get all of those little gears to work together, and that was fin, even fun at times. And given the circumstances of the SDK and MSFS in general, it seems like a small miracle you were able to pull it of and bring GSX to this sim. But it's still very unfortunate, that we now have MORE limitations and quirks than ever before, and not more features and better functionality. We can't change jetways and VDGS* on 3rd party airports, marketplace scenery is a huge disadvantage now, and how afcad's and jetway recognition are handled in MSFS goes beyond my understanding. And still no ActiveSky, no Weather Radar, no Chaseplane etc.... . I really hoped this all will get simpler, better, easier but MSFS seems to be a locked "game" everyone is forced to bend/mod/trick so that things like GSX work, rather than a solid program base for developers to get creative in all sort of ways. Many developers keep saying how difficult it is to work with it and for me that feels like a step back. It should be the other way around. But... well... I guess that's just not what MS/Asobo wants.

Anyway, I really appreciate the effort and I can only hope things will get a bit smoother in the future, as maybe airport- and aircraft-devs will incorporate GSX in some way.

BR

PS: And thanks for the guy with the clip board watching on the walk-in passengers :) ... (was a request I made a while ago)

HeicoH

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Re: Gate gets removed when calling for boarding
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2022, 02:28:09 pm »
What Umberto writes seems to be reasonable and understandable, but it still doesn't work.

Quote
So, assuming GSX managed to bypass all these obstacles, and DID find the right Jetway Simobject, we are onto the next task, which is knowing IF a jetway is docked or not, so the SDK limitations in this area are that we don't have a variable to know if a jetway is docked or not, we only a variable to know if it's moving ( but not in which direction, meaning we don't know if it's extending or retracting ) and we have some variables we can read about the Jetway HOOD ( the cover ), that's the only things we have, so we used the variable for the Hood and, if they have been extended and the jetway is not moving, we can "safely" assume the Jetway must have docked.

"Safely", as long the Hood extends properly and of course if the right Jetway object has been found, as explained in all the previous points before.

All of this means, that GSX won't be able to recognize the Jetway docked/undocked status, unless ALL the previous hurdles in finding jetways and their object have been resolved.

Have a look at the following pictures. It is GCLA.

On the first picture you see the jetway undocked and not moving. The "hood" is in the unextended position.

On the second picture you see the jetway docked and not moving. The "hood" is in the extended position.  I used the Fenix EFB to bring the jetway and "hood" into this positions. Comparing the pictures, you can clearly distinguish the two positions of the "hood".

Now when I request boarding, GSX toggles the jetway causing it to retract and subsequently the pax are walking thru the air. Now, What could be the difference between EDDM and GCLA?

Anyways, if GSX has so many problems to get the correct data about the jetway position, why not just exclude the jetway toggle command from the boarding request. That would solve all those problems. Be honest to yourself: if you are a pilot that requests boarding with a jetway not docked, try a fishing simulator instead od a fliegt simulator.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2022, 02:30:33 pm by HeicoH »
My GSX test scenario (unless otherwise stated):
Sandbox environment
GSX v 2.9.1 (as of 20 Jan 2023)
Fenix A320, PMDG 737-800, ATR-72
EDDL (JustSim), EDDK (Aerosoft), both not Marketplace
GSX jetways disabled
no AI traffic
no antivirus or firewall software running
all apps started in admin mode

virtuali

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Re: Gate gets removed when calling for boarding
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2022, 03:41:29 pm »
What Umberto writes seems to be reasonable and understandable, but it still doesn't work.

It doesn't work only because I cannot verify or answer to your case, because you haven't provide all the information I asked:

- Is the scenery bought on the Marketplace ?

- Have you checked if GSX loaded the correct airport file ? ( it will surely not, if the scenery is encrypted, nobody can load an encrypted .BGL )

Since you reported the same problem in two different threads, if would be best if you could decide which one you want to continue discussing it, no use have two identical threads about the same issue.

kano

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Re: Jetway gets removed when calling for boarding
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2022, 02:59:15 pm »
Umberto

Very comprehensive explanation, for the not very familiar, a bit overwhelming though (but very appreciated, don't get me wrong).

I'm saying this because I think the issue I've got is due to one (or a few) of the reasons you mention, but I wanted to see if you can give me some confirmation before I get mad trying and trying. So here it goes:

LECO from TDM (bought from their web)
Fenix a320
In GSX installer, I have:
     LECO disable for Jetway configuration
     Nothing disable for services.
I run exclude third parties

And when I click on boarding, the jetway detaches.

Is this one of the cases there is no much to do or is it me that I am missing something?

You confirmation will help me lots

Thank you

Antonio


virtuali

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Re: Jetway gets removed when calling for boarding
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2022, 03:46:57 pm »
Fenix a320

Quote
And when I click on boarding, the jetway detaches.

Be sure you disable the automatic jetway connection in the Fenix preferences.

kano

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Re: Jetway gets removed when calling for boarding
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2022, 09:55:40 pm »
Quote

Be sure you disable the automatic jetway connection in the Fenix preferences.

It was, always has been my preference.. :-\

virtuali

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Re: Jetway gets removed when calling for boarding
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2022, 08:36:59 am »
It was, always has been my preference..

Then GSX will surely not detach the jetway on Boarding.

Unless that jetway on that particular scenery has a missing (or not working) jetway Hood cover, since GSX must use the standard variables that reports the jetway Hood to know if a jetway has Docked, and these can be either missing or just misleading because, even if the jetway *tries* to dock but fails to reach the door, the Hood will still extend, so GSX will be confused by the failed docking attempt into thinking the jetway docked when it really hasn't.

Another possible issue, is the jetway hasn't really detached, and you just got the very well know bug that results in the jetway *appear* to have detached, but it really hasn't, it's just a visual bug that shows the jetway in the retracted position when LODs switch. Nothing to do with GSX, it's known MSFS bug that has been reported over a year ago to Asobo by multiple developers.

kano

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Re: Jetway gets removed when calling for boarding
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2022, 09:49:41 am »
It must be something as you suggest, however, I don't even see the passengers walking on the air. The jetway works fine but as we discuss it get removed when it is needed.

I tried other payware airports, and works fine, so it may have been something with that scenery.

and.... well I'll open another post as the topic is a bit different, so we keep some tidiness  :)
« Last Edit: October 08, 2022, 10:00:19 am by kano »