FSDreamTeam forum
General Category => Unofficial F/A-18 Acceleration Pack board => Topic started by: burner12 on December 31, 2008, 05:53:13 pm
-
Does anybody know the approach sped at what distance along with altitude to approach once you turn on the 90? I can trap aboard but the meatball is always red which means I 'm always low. I have only gotten a 3 or 4 wire about 3 times since I played the game. I downloaded that TOP GUN Simulations with Dale Snort Snodgrass as the LSO, but still I get the red ball does anyone know what speed and altitude to approach her?
-
It's all about reading the instruments all the way down. As a rough reference to Dale's carrier mission, cross the destroyer behind the carrier at about 550-600 ft and lined up on the final approach course. The ball should give you an "on slope" indication at that point. Your goal keep the meatball aligned with the datum light. It should look somethig like this:
----0----
Your speed is going to vary with aircraft weight(fuel). Use your AOA indexer to the left of your HUD to assure you are at the correct speed for your approach. You are looking to maintain the yellow circle (amber donut) all the way down to touchdown. If you see the green arrow, then you need to increase your speed (or lower your AOA). If you see a red arrow, then you need decrease your speed (or increase or AOA). Be aware though that once you adjust your speed or AOA, you are going to need to re-establish your descent rate to maintain the correct glideslope or else you will start getting "too high" or "too low" indications on the meatball.
If you maintain the correct line-up, glideslope, and speed, you should do fine. The important thing (and also the hard thing...) is to maintain these three things until touchdown. With that being said, DO NOT FLARE! once you get over the deck, just hold the aircraft's posture until it whacks the deck. Consider it more of a "controlled crash" than a landing. Hope this helps and good luck!
-
maybe this is juts my approach, :-\ But has anybody noticed that when you turn at the 90 the ball always says you're low turning red. And then it goes back to yellow depending on your speed and altitude( I know it's supposed to do that) but whenever I com in with the ball being yellow saying I'm just a tad low I always miss the wires but when it's red I always touchdown. Maybe it's just my speed and alt at which i come in. But when ever I try keeping the ball yellow I wave off or bolter? ??? ???
-
In your particular case, it sounds like you are flying through the glide slope. The illustration should help you visualize whats going on.
Because of your shallow approach angle, a red light will get you on the deck, but you will probably either hit the back of the ship (ramp strike) or touchdown on the ship early, usually resulting in a 1 wire instead of the prefered 3 wire. Hope this helps
-Jimi
-
Thanks jimi, I think you cleared up the problem I have been having. Al this time I thought I was making great approaches but now I know the problem and I'm doing even better. Does anybody know to translate the debrief that Capt. Dale Snort Snodgrass gives? I can understand the basics he says " high start, little high in the middle, lined up right start" But is he using a specific point like when he says high in the middle he does mean the approach right? It could be no other thing, but I still can't translate alot of what he says?
-
Go here to download a genuine USN LSO PDF (5Mb) Reference Manual (NATOPS) that will explain a lot of detail. There might be more details than you care to know - however it will give you an idea that this is a real challenge to get a good approach perfect.
http://www.vmfa-323.com/DeathRattlers/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=97&func=fileinfo&id=7
______________________________
An overview of LSO responsibilities with radio call meanings (1.6Mb PDF) is here:
http://www.lsoschool.org/legacy/files/LSO_NATOPS.pdf
_________________________________
This next URL below is more for the VSTOL LSO radio calls/ops and it is only a 1Mb PDF:
http://www.robertheffley.com/docs/CV_environ/00-80T-104--LSO%20NATOPS.pdf
_____________________________
More LSO stuff here:
http://www.lsoschool.org/legacy/files/
-
thanks
-
There is a 'SUPER Hornet' NATOPS (pilot manual) PDF (35Mb) at:
http://www.vmfa-323.com/DeathRattlers/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=97&func=fileinfo&id=6
Be aware that there will be differences between the Supers and earlier Hornets, however this NATOPS gives a good idea of how things work.
_____________________________
This next PDF download is a 'bit off topic' but it will show a potential 'deck lander' how to go about it using an A-4 Skyhawk (or any Navy military jet really). I'll have to make a 'deck landing only' PDF available:
http://files.filefront.com/USN+A+4+ONLY+21oct08pdf/;12114872;/fileinfo.html
(USN A-4s and "how to deck land" info in 1GB PDF with embedded video clips explaining it all)
http://hosted.filefront.com/SpazSinbad/ (more PDFs all under 1GB)
with videos here:
http://hosted.filefront.com/SpazSinbad/2116553
_____________________
The 'How to Deck Land' PDFs are likely to have a lot of Hornet/Super Hornet 'deck landing' video examples also. Still working on a generic 'DL' PDF. In meantime here is a Super Hornet diagram compilation from their NATOPS:
-
THANKS ! ;)
-
burner12: Looked to answer your question about LSO jargon. Not everything is covered everywhere in the PDFs cited. Here is an official explanation of some LSO terminology:
'At the start' (first one-third of glideslope)
'In the middle' (middle one-third of the glideslope)
'In close' (last one-third of glideslope)
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
I'll look for original LSO PDF with these symbols/explanations to post the URL sometime:
-
Does anybody knoiw why Snodgrass doesn't say at 3/4 of a mile if your on the ball? Maybe that's just the mission development?
-
I don't mean to be misunderstanding but these pdf files display what exactly? They show LSO info but do they tell about the glideslope or what??? I see the acronyms thatnks for that. ;)
-
burner12: The PDFs I'm referring you to are for LSOs and for pilot knowledge while my own PDFs are for your general knowledge about 'how to deck land' using the A4G Skyhawk as a base for that knowledge. However all USN jet aircraft use similar techniques (meatball in the mirror, line up and Angle of Attack) to make a successful deck landing.
Sorry I'm not familiar with the Top Gun simulations or what Snodgrass is going to say - I have assumed that the LSO information will help you. IF not then you will need to ask specific questions. I see 'jimi08' has specifically answered one of your questions. My input has really been 'general knowledge'.
-
I thank you both for the info you have given me!
-
At the end of this rave from URL below I'll put more 'raves' about LSO stuff: (all are in the PDFs about 'how to deck land the A-4 - or any USN jet)
1. Could one of y'all put up a "grading passes 101"?
2. The shorthand LSO's use - is it Fleet-standardized?
3. Taught at LSO School? Or just whatever the CAG Paddles prefers?
4. What's considered start/at the middle/in-close? Etc and so on.
http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/showthread.php?p=385759&highlight=Grade+Bolter+Waveoff#post385759
I concur with everything A4s said. Only a little bit has changed, it is still the "artform" that he was taught. We have computerized so grades are now stored in a database which makes things like "Top 10" and Trend Analysis much easier. It also means that a couple of the comments have changed. Not many symbols any more. "Rough" as in rough wings, rough nose, etc, is now "RUF" It used to be a squiggly horizontal line. Fly-through-up and fly-through-down, which used to be hand drawn (usually improperly) are now "/" and "\" respectively.
1. Grading Passes and 2. Shorthand and 4. What is the start, in close...
101 Remember the main reason we grade passes is so a pilot can learn from every pass and the Pilot and LSO can spot trends which need correction. My philosophy as a CAG LSO was not "lets see how much detail we can go into" it was more "hit the high points and tell him what he saw."
Tell him what he saw. Not what you saw. Important distinction. If you saw him low, but he saw a centered ball because he was slow and cocked up, then you would say slocu "slow cocked up". Then in the debrief when he doesn't see the low you saw, you can explain the airspeed deviation maksked the glideslope deviation.
We can start grading anywhere we want. In my airwing, we gave upgrades for the SHB - shit hot break, but only if you could handle it. Common calls in the RAG and TRACOM are TWA or TCA - too wide/close abeam. WUX, AA Wrapped up start, angling approach. All valid comments. ("If you ever hear a student say "Don't call the ball until you are wings level, because Paddles can't start grading until the ball call." Please punch them.)
So, basics: We look at three things. Glideslope, Lineup, Speed. There are lots of comments you can use:
Glideslope - H - High LO - Low. HCD - High coming down. B - Flat. (Flat is ALWAYS a glideslope reference, not aircraft attitude) S- Settle
\ - fly down through the glideslope / - Fly up through the glideslope
Lineup - LUR/LUL Lined up left/right R-L -Right to left.
Speed - F - Fast Slo - Slow CU - Cocked up ND - Nose down ACC - Accelerate DEC - Decelerate
We can also talk about the magnitude of a deviation. If it is (in parentheses) it is "a little" if it is underlined that means "a lot".
We grade any part of what we see, from the break to the flyaway on a B (Bolter) or WO (waveoff). For tracking and debriefing purposes, we break the groove up into distinct (but subjective) parts. X - start (usually about the time you go wings level). IM - In the middle. IC - In close. AR - At the ramp. IW - In the wires.
Then we take the deviation comments, put them in a location and build a pass. (We will talk about grading in a minute)
(OK) HX (TMP.CDIC) FBAR 4
Fair pass. High Start, a little too much power on the come down in close, fast flat at the ramp. 4 wire.
-- NEP.DRIM OCSDEC.LUIC LOBAR 3
NO GRADE Not enough power on drift right in the middle. Overcontrolled big settle decel on lineup inclose. Low, very flat at the ramp. 3 wire.
OK (NEPIC) (SAR) 2
OKAY PASS. A little not enough power in close, a little settle at the ramp. 2 wire.
Grades and grading philosophy:
Our (me and the other CAG LSO) philosophy was that in our airwing, it would be harder then in most to get an OK. We did not give sugar calls and expected pilots to get aboard without help. We tried to make it so that the only time you got a radio call was if we thought you were losing control of the pass. Not unheard of on our platform to get a "no grade" and not have anything said. Our mantra was "If he is going to clear the ramp, land near centerline with no drift, and not break the jet (For A4s, that is a new concern in the Hornet age) then we normally won't talk to them.
Grades (and points assigned on 4.0 scale)
OK 5 "Okay Underlined" No deviations. (Never happens) Usually assigned for single engines, 1000th trap, very tough enviornmentals, etc.
OK 4 "Okay pass" Above Average Pass. Minor deviations with timely and proper corrections.
(OK) 3 "Fair Pass" Pass with average deviations and corrections.
B 2.5 Bolter. Basically a fair pass where you didn't get aboard. Boarding rate hit for pilot and squadron. Contrary to popular belief, a bolter is a safe, acceptable pass. (as long as you don't make a habit of it!)
-- 2.0 No Grade. (AKA "Stitch" or "Gash") Below average (but safe) pass. Excessive deviations and/or improper or untimely corrections and/or improper response to LSO call.
WOP 2.0 Pattern Waveoff. Usually issued for gross deviations in the approach turn. Excessive low or overshoot.
WO 1.0 Waveoff. Issued to prevent an unsafe pass from continuing. Caused by escessive deviations, compound deviations, or lack of response to LSO calls.
C 0.0 Cut pass. Unsafe. Probably a mishap.
WOFD * Foul deck waveoff. No grade awarded, doesn't count as a pass. (like a walk in Baseball) No boarding rate hit. (Exception- If you caused the WOFD by not having enough interval, then I would grade it as a WOP)
There are a few others:
OWO (Own Waveoff). Unless done at the start, not safe. Will definitely get a talking to from CAG Paddles and possibly Boss/CAG/CAPT.
WOW Waveoff Winds. Winds out of limits. Treated like WOFD.
3. Taught at LSO school: Not really. Like A4s said, it is an art. The only way you get good at it is to do it. Over and over and over and over.
LSO school is to waving what a simulator and Instrument ground school are to flying: You learn necessary info and procedures, but you don't learn to wave....
_______________________________
http://www.everything2.com/e2node/How%2520to%2520land%2520a%2520jet%2520plane%2520on%2520an%2520aircraft%2520carrier
-
http://members.aol.com/hangfire2/cqual.htm
The LSO Shack = Flying the Ball
In order to fly the ball in a precise manner, the pilot must learn to detect deviations and make appropriate corrections. Seldom, if ever, will you be able to leave the power alone and fly a centered ball, on speed, all the way to touchdown. You will always be making corrections of some kind... the trick is to learn to detect and fix deviations early while they are more easily fixed.
There are three general areas that must be understood and mastered in order to fly the ball well.
1. SCAN. Altitude, alignment, and airspeed are essentially all that you are concerned with while flying the ball. A continuous scan of meatball, lineup, and angle of attack will allow you to pick up deviations and make the appropriate correction. It will also enable you to rapidly determine if the correction you have initiated is working!
2. FUNNEL EFFECT. Because of the nature of the meatball, the corrections that you make further away from the ramp must be larger than those you must make closer in. A high ball as you roll into the groove may require 20-30 feet of correction, whereas at the ramp the difference between a centered ball and a ball high is only 3 feet. You must be able to judge the amount of correction that you should input based on your distance from the ship and the corresponding sensitivity of the ball.
3. COUNTER CORRECTION. For every correction you make, there will have to be a counter correction to allow yourself to re-stabilize. If you reduce power because you are high ,you will begin to descend. Unless a counter correction is made, in this case squeaking on a little power as the ball centers, you will coast right on down through the glideslope and end up low.
As stated earlier, the glide slope is controlled primarily with power, and AOA/airspeed is controlled primarily with the stick, however, it is important to realize that there must be a coordinated use of both in any correction. Here are some examples of typical deviations and the necessary corrections.
HIGH AND ON SPEED: Reduce power and drop the nose slightly to maintain on speed AOA. Since power was reduced, the ball will start to move downward. As the ball approaches the center of the lens, counter-correct to stop it there. Add power and raise the nose slightly.
HIGH AND FAST : Reduce power and hold the nose momentarily until on speed AOA is reached, then adjust the nose to maintain AOA. Again catch the descent with a little power back on to avoid flying through centered ball.
HIGH AND SLOW: Decrease nose attitude slightly to decrease AOA. This nose down may be enough to start the ball moving down, but be prepared to adjust power as on speed is reached to continue/arrest the descent as needed
LOW AND ON SPEED: Add power and adjust the nose to maintain on-speed. Reduce power only when the ball is centered.
LOW AND FAST : You can use part of your excess speed to convert into altitude. However, you must be ready to add power as needed if you reach on speed before you climb back up on glideslope.
LOW AND SLOW: The most dangerous combination, as you are energy deficient. Add power and hold nose attitude constant. The power addition will move the ball upward, and may start to accelerate the aircraft. Once you are back up and on glideslope you can adjust the nose and power to regain on speed.
SLOW: If slow and on glideslope simultaneously release backstick to decrease AOA while adding power to counter the tendency to descend.
FAST : Just the opposite of slow. Increase backstick while squeaking a little power off to keep from climbing.
Finally, some of the golden rules of flying the ball:
l Always lead a high
l Never lead or finesse a low
l Never center a high ball in close
l If high and not on speed, fix AOA first
l If low and not on speed, fix glideslope first
_______________________________________
http://www.everything2.com/e2node/How%2520to%2520land%2520a%2520jet%2520plane%2520on%2520an%2520aircraft%2520carrier
-
When, if ever, does an LSO radio to the pilot "Paddles Contact"? I don't think it is used in the missions I've seen so far.
-
"Paddles Contact"? In what circumstances or in what part of these posts have you seen this radio call please? My guess from hearing USN LSOs talk on videos would be that the aircraft is perhaps doing an instrument let down while the LSO will talk to the pilot before his 'ball call' to let the pilot know that he has the aircraft (before the pilot sees the ball coming off instruments). Perhaps it may be used in other circumstances but except in training situations (especially ashore) the LSO usually does not say much unless it is an emergency or a really bad approach. For example often there is silence after the pilot calls the ball with the LSO responding "roger ball".
-
HUD symbology from Super Hornet NATOPS:
-
Carrier tutorial and Carrier Practice missions both have Paddles contact.
-
"Paddles Contact"? In what circumstances or in what part of these posts have you seen this radio call please? My guess from hearing USN LSOs talk on videos would be that the aircraft is perhaps doing an instrument let down while the LSO will talk to the pilot before his 'ball call' to let the pilot know that he has the aircraft (before the pilot sees the ball coming off instruments). Perhaps it may be used in other circumstances but except in training situations (especially ashore) the LSO usually does not say much unless it is an emergency or a really bad approach. For example often there is silence after the pilot calls the ball with the LSO responding "roger ball".
It mentions in the LSO manual either roger ball or paddles contact maybe thats where they got it from.
-
It was in a video where a pilot describes the low snowing clouds as he starts his pass. He can't see the boat or the ball but the LSO used the vocal "Paddles Contact" on the radio to let the pilot know the LSOs could see his landing light, if I recall correctly, and the F-14 broke out below the clouds with seconds to go and made it. No indication of landing instrument procedure that was being used, I assume.
Thanks for clearing that up.
-
Carrier tutorial and Carrier Practice missions both have Paddles contact.
I'll check. Thanks for the info. I need all the help I can get.
-
Regarding meaning of "Paddles Contact". I've not had time to reread all the different LSO information in PDF format but I would guess there is a distinct difference between the LSO radio call "Paddles Contact" and "Roger Ball". Paddles Contact to me would imply that the LSO is calling the approaching aircraft before that aircraft has called (seeing) the ball. As has been suggested perhaps there was previous conversations due to conditions. However my point is that the "Roger Ball" call by the LSO is different.
'Roger Ball' is acknowledgement by the LSO that he has heard the approaching aircraft callsign, fuel state and that its pilot can see the ball. I have seen commentators think that this (Roger Ball) means the aircraft is cleared to land. This is no such clearance. An LSO can WaveOFF the aircraft at any time it is safe to do so for whatever reason. Often you will see videos when the LSOs have their hands in the air to signify to others that the deck is 'foul'. That is: NO aircraft can land on a 'foul deck'. However an aircraft may approach to its safe waveoff position (even if the deck is foul) in case the deck becomes "clear" during the approach, so that that aircraft can land.
The approaching aircraft does not need to know this particularly. All the pilot needs to do is call the ball and concentrate. The LSO then is like air traffic control in that specific situation. The LSO will be hearing others around him (helping) determining if the deck will soon be 'clear'; so that he may continue to allow the aircraft to approach. IF otherwise it is known that the deck will remain foul then the LSO will waveoff the aircraft in good time for another approach.
So I hope that explains that "Paddles Contact" is not a substitute for "Roger Ball". Roger Ball is a response to the pilot calling the ball. Paddles Contact is an advisory call that the LSO can see the approaching aircraft (even though that aircraft may not see the ship, the ball or have obviously 'called the ball'). If a pilot hears 'Paddles Contact' that may encourage him to continue to look for the ship, ball etc but without otherwise getting into an unsafe flight/approach situation. That is another matter. For example without being under control of a Controller the aircraft will not go below a certain safe altitude until the ball is seen. The CCA (Carrier Controlled Approach Controller) looking at precision radar can guide the aircraft to the minimums to then allow the pilot to see the ball to then continue on a conventional approach.
Today of course there are many other types of instrument approaches where different instruments can be used in combination to carry out an approach to a specified minimum altitude and distance from the ship. IF the ball is not seen at these minimums then the aircraft must carry out a 'missed approach'. The various LSO and Super Hornet NATOPS PDFs describe some of these approaches and procedures.
Additionally the LSO can 'talkdown' a pilot in an emergency or use the MOVLAS (manual mirror control) to guide the pilot. These are explained in the LSO NATOPS PDF. Generally the pilot/LSO say little if all goes well.
-
"Paddles contact" states that the LSO can now see the approaching aircraft. On Case 3 (IFR) approaches, the aircraft is getting line up and glide slope instructtions from CATCC. Once the LSO sees them, "Paddles contact" is really a call to ATC saying, "I'll take it from here".
-
mircorbrewst, Thanks for clearing that up about "Paddles Contact".
-
"Paddles contact" states that the LSO can now see the approaching aircraft. On Case 3 (IFR) approaches, the aircraft is getting line up and glide slope instructtions from CATCC. Once the LSO sees them, "Paddles contact" is really a call to ATC saying, "I'll take it from here".
Then paddles contact is ok for Carrier Practice mission since that features low cloud but the Carrier tutorial it would be incorrect since its an VFR approach?
-
subs17, from 'microbrewst' reply it would seem that in the 'VFR Mission' (I have not seen it yet) of FSX - if the pilot is flying a visual approach to the carrier - then 'Paddles Contact' is incorrect if it is apparently a substitute for the 'Roger Ball' response to the pilot's 'Ball Call'.
However in other circumstances, such as making a practice Instrument Approach (pretend flying in cloud on instruments when there is no cloud) that might be a scenario when the "Paddles Contact" is used. But the call is to the Carrier Air Traffic Controllers (who may be guiding the aircraft to the safe minimums so that the pilot can then call the ball) to let them know (and the pilot) that the LSO has the aircraft in sight.
When the pilot sees the meatball he will then make that 'ball' call with the LSO 'Roger Ball' response.
Please remember that often in documentaries or feature films, if the LSO is portrayed talking a lot to the Pilot then that is a scripted trick to make the scene more dramatic - unless for example it is portraying an emergency approach. Otherwise nothing much is said as per other info on this thread. It is like seeing movie jet pilots flying without their face masks secured. This is another movie trick to allow the audience to see the pilot's face - which would be obscured in real life and not very dramatic.
-
You should see the F/A-18 missions in FSX then I suggest try them out the 3rd one is a Carrier approach at night in bad weather without TACAN/ILS and thats the only one where he Calls the ball. IMO you won't find much realism in FSX if you're comparing it to anything since its designed as a civilian flight sim and there are very few exceptions to that unless you want to create your own custom file for the LSO I think FD5 has LSO and Tacan.
Please remember that often in documentaries or feature films, if the LSO is portrayed talking a lot to the Pilot then that is a scripted trick to make the scene more dramatic - unless for example it is portraying an emergency approach. Otherwise nothing much is said as per other info on this thread. It is like seeing movie jet pilots flying without their face masks secured. This is another movie trick to allow the audience to see the pilot's face - which would be obscured in real life and not very dramatic.
Yeah I don't spend too much time watching such movies Dude but I am well aware of what LSOs do from watching a few HUD/Landing tapes. BTW I've found the ultimate Carrier sim ;D just make sure microbrewst doesn't see this.
http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=2AKIKcF4IAg
No not F-14s!
-
As you can guess I'm new to FSX - particularly Accelerator - with the great Hornet. Once I discovered here that having the hook down stopped that STUPID cycling ON/OFF of the AoA indexer I was pleased as punch with the sim Hornet. Great work. I digress. Today discovered some good explanatory LSO videos at: http://www.topgunsim.com/tgssite/Videos.aspx The titles of videos explain content. They are good value.
I'm still working on making a 'Hornet only' (with some A4G / other USN aircraft content) "How to Deck Land" PDF - trying to make it small and with appropriate content.
-
Hey guys,
We have just made a tutorial on the proper techniques of Carrier Landings. Here are three places to check it out:
-On our website: http://fsxblueangels.com/videoscreen%20ok3.html (http://fsxblueangels.com/videoscreen%20ok3.html)
-On Vimeo (better quality): http://www.vimeo.com/2950519 (http://www.vimeo.com/2950519)
-Download: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7UQJCCZA (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7UQJCCZA)
Hope it helps and answers some of the questions posted here. Good Luck!
-Jimi
-
jimi08, Thanks for the terrific video. Well done. I'm needing to view it a few times to take it all in. Very well made and informative video. Nice. ;D
-
Wow Jimi, thank you SO MUCH! I never knew that there was a set AOA for it and this should help me LOADS!
-
Thanks alot guys.
-
Thanks guys. This video really helps. Now when I fly those Snodgrass missions he created I'm getting better. It'll take time but I'll be much better now that i know the specs for an FSX carrier landing. I wonder how they got those different views from the lso screen, behind the nose gear the back of the plane and the ball itself?
You know what would make it even more challenging is if you could and movement to the ship so it's rockin' n' rollin'.
You know in the video it said to only go to MILITARY power (w/out burner). But when I look at some Naval Aviation pics I seee Hornets in burner which is past MILITARY power. I wonder why they went to burner and not MILITARY power. Now I do know the F-14A had to take off in Burner . I don't know about the Hornet though? :-\
-
burner12 (apt): According to 'Super Hornet' NATOPS the pilot has discretion for Bolter / WaveOff which will include Arrest (because A/C might Bolter) the MIL power is standard with MAX power at pilot discretion. See NATOPS carrier landing diagram page 1 of this thread. Apparently pilot can - in error - go to burner.
-
burner12 (apt):Apparently pilot can - in error - go to burner.
When you say in error do you mean accidently moving th throttle fully forward? But what I meant was not wave offs or bolters but during a launch sequence i see alot of night pics at burner and day at burner and notmilitary power, why?
-
You know in the video it said to only go to MILITARY power (w/out burner). But when I look at some Naval Aviation pics I seee Hornets in burner which is past MILITARY power. I wonder why they went to burner and not MILITARY power. Now I do know the F-14A had to take off in Burner . I don't know about the Hornet though? :-\
You Have to think about the mission at hand, and the weight of the aircraft.
-If you are headed out for a normal flight, you're going to have a lot of gas and stores (you're heavy). You're also going to be pulling the gear and flaps up after launch so you don't need to worry about max speeds. So going into burner is acceptable and preferred in this case.
-If you're going to be staying in the pattern, you're not going to have much gas, and there's no need for weapons (you're light). You're also going to be leaving the gear and flaps down, and are going to try to keep it below 200 kts. If you go into burner in this situation you might exceed max speeds pretty quick. Not to mention that you're wasting what little gas you have onboard.
Hope that helps.
-
burner12: Yes, for the reason described above by 'microbrewst' very well (about fuel burn in the carrier landing pattern) it is not a good idea to 'go burner' if the aircraft is deemed to be flying OK. However there might be circumstances where using the burner is appropriate due to special conditions. A wire break might be one such emergency for example. Apparently it is easy for some to go into burner instead of mil power by mistake. I have not flown a Hornet to know - sorry. :-) Pics from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailhook"
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
You Have to think about the mission at hand, and the weight of the aircraft.
-If you are headed out for a normal flight, you're going to have a lot of gas and stores (you're heavy). You're also going to be pulling the gear and flaps up after launch so you don't need to worry about max speeds. So going into burner is acceptable and preferred in this case.
-If you're going to be staying in the pattern, you're not going to have much gas, and there's no need for weapons (you're light). You're also going to be leaving the gear and flaps down, and are going to try to keep it below 200 kts. If you go into burner in this situation you might exceed max speeds pretty quick. Not to mention that you're wasting what little gas you have onboard.
Hope that helps.
[/quote]
You know being an aviation enthusiast myself I should have thougt of that. Thanks for reminding me. I don't know why that didn't come across my mind, thanks micro.
-
GREAT video by the FSX Blue Angels.
One question tho, how did they get all those awesome external views?
-
that's what i'm wondering?
-
There are ways to create new views via the camera config file. If you have the Deluxe Version of FSX, it contains the Software Developer's Kit or SDK, that shows you how to create new camera views as well as many other things.
-Jimi
-
Any chance we can get the tweaked camera.cfg file uploaded somewhere?
-
Most of the "unique" viewpoints where make to be used for the particular shot then deleted shortly afterwards. Althogh the views are great for movie making, they tend to be bothersome for regular flying due to the number of viewpoints that have to be cycled through to get the wanted view. The SDK has a pretty detailed description on how to make these views.
-
>:( I've searched everywhere and i have the deluxe edition but i haven't found where the SDK is? can you lead me to it?
-
Insert disk 1, explore, and find the SDK folder.
-
Insert disk 1, explore, and find the SDK folder.
I did install the program, but how do I use it. All I see are files and folders for it, I don't see any .exe file to start it? I even installed the service pack sdk for it.
-
You Have to think about the mission at hand, and the weight of the aircraft.
-If you are headed out for a normal flight, you're going to have a lot of gas and stores (you're heavy). You're also going to be pulling the gear and flaps up after launch so you don't need to worry about max speeds. So going into burner is acceptable and preferred in this case.
-If you're going to be staying in the pattern, you're not going to have much gas, and there's no need for weapons (you're light). You're also going to be leaving the gear and flaps down, and are going to try to keep it below 200 kts. If you go into burner in this situation you might exceed max speeds pretty quick. Not to mention that you're wasting what little gas you have onboard.
Hope that helps.
You know here is one questino that hasn't been answerred. We 've all said that if you're light you don't need burner nad if your heavy you do. But why do I see some video of Hornets lighting the burners down the catapult and not at the start? I can understand why they'd light them after they're away from the ship in order to get the extra boost of power but why down the catapult?
-
burner12, I don't believe anyone has exactly said "... if you're light you don't need burner nad if your heavy you do." Your statement oversimplifies the burner situation as it has been described in this thread, and I believe your summary is not accurate. The Hornet pilot can use the burner at his/her discretion. While they may try to use it as described very well by 'microbrwst'. However for example the pilot can - in error - go to burner during a bolter, or NOT. It all depends.
You would have to give the URL for a Hornet launch showing the burner being lit sometime after catapulting. To my knowledge I have seen only catapults with the burner already lit before launch - not during.
APPROACH (USN Flying Safety Magazine) has stories about whether to use the burner or not during launch. These suggest that using the burner for catapulting is a good idea. It would appear that 'depending on the situation before launch' use of the burner is optional while the situation is flexible. It would seem there is no right or wrong but the burner gives more safety margin during catapult for example even if it is not required by other flying regulations.
-
An APPROACH story (did not record issue date)
http://safetycenter.navy.mil/media/approach/default.htm
‘Cobra Off the Cat’ By Lt. Mark Crowe [Use afterburner on the catapult]
The carrier and air-wing team neared the end of a two-and-a-half-week at-sea period off the east coast of Virginia. The weather was beautiful, and I was scheduled to lead a division of Hornets on a routine air-to-air mission with a Case I launch and recovery.
Following the brief, I walked through maintenance and read the book. I noticed the jet had produced a few random flight-control Xs on a catapult shot but nothing that affected controllability or would not reset. Also, both flight-control computers had been replaced before my flight, so everything looked kosher.
Preflight, start, and pretakeoff checks were normal, right up until launch. I saluted the catapult officer and sped down the cat stroke. My head went forward a little from the deceleration (as it always does), and my chin immediatelywas pinned to my chest. The jet inexplicably had pitched nose-up, and I instantaneously felt the force of roughly three Gs; the AOA tone quickly followed.
With my peripheral vision, I saw the vapor trails coming across the leading-edge extensions. About a second and a half later, I got my hand back on the stick, my eyes on the HUD, and began pushing over to level off at 600 feet.
My first thought was to descend to 500 feet and continue with the Case I departure, then return overhead to troubleshoot. I clearly was working on stem power. The Air Boss, on the other hand, after asking if I had a problem, recommended I climb to 2,000 feet to troubleshoot.
My flight-control display showed I had Xs in two channels of both stabilator servos and a single X in my left leading-edge-flap servo. After talking with the Hornet rep, we decided I should climb above 10,000 feet to investigate. Once at altitude, I got a good reset of the flight-control system and a good check of the aircraft in the landing configuration. From then on, it was an uneventful flight to Oceana for a short-field arrestment.
Playing those few seconds over again, a couple of thoughts went through my mind. My first thought was I inadvertently had pulled back on the stick at the end of the cat stroke. (In the early days of the FA-18, with pilots sometimes grabbed the stick too soon after the cat stroke, often resulting in an ugly, pilot-induced oscillation.) Because I was aware of the issues of stick movement, my forward stick input after that catapult was not an instant one. With the jet in full afterburner, I knew I had plenty of excess power, so I gradually pushed the stick forward to level off. I was a bit disoriented, so my other thought was to maintain the altitude sanctuary of the structured CV environment and not to climb through pattern or break altitudes without having a good feel for where other aircraft were.
The event didn’t feel like that big a deal, so I was prepared to recover aboard the ship. Fortunately, enough people had seen the cat shot to know that landing on the ship and trying another shot would not be a good idea, so I got to go home a day early.
What had happened? After pulling the maintenance data from the aircraft, the troubleshooters discovered the flight controls went to MECH ON for about three and a half seconds after the catapult stroke. The PLAT tape showed the aircraft reached a 45- degree-pitch attitude within a second of coming off the catapult. The maintenance data also revealed the aircraft decelerated to 150 knots, and AOA increased to above 27 degrees during that pitch-up. On-speed at my takeoff was about 173 knots and 8.1 degrees AOA. I didn’t think my launch looked nearly as dramatic as it felt. It was not until I reviewed the PLAT tape two days later that I realized how close the aircraft had been to departing controlled flight at 100 feet.
After two weeks of scrubbing the aircraft for causes, the problem was traced to a loose wire in the back of the emergency-battery contactor. This problem was something no one could have predicted or seen.
I pulled away a few big lessons from this incident. Use afterburner on the catapult; it had been my habit pattern before this incident, and I will continue to do so. Not only is using afterburner the first step in our settle-off-the-catapult procedure, but, in this case, it also gave me enough airspeed and time to fly away from an extreme aircraft attitude.
Even though it was day VFR, the first place I looked after I could pick up my head was the HUD. This action helped to replace the situational awareness the cat shot had sucked away. Had this situation occurred at night, a look to the HUD would have been even more critical, especially without the benefit of all the peripheral-vision cues present during the day.
I did not consider the eject option. The aircraft was under control within three seconds after the catapult shot, so I never considered pulling the handle. If I had had a nose-down pitch or an uncontrollable yaw or roll, I quickly would have been at the edge of the safe-ejection envelope.
For me, this incident just reinforced the fact that anything can happen, especially during something as dynamic as a catapult shot.
Lt. Crowe flies with VFA-87
-
http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/090215-N-8517C-676.jpg "Even Marines Can Look Good at the Back of the Boat. So long as there’s cool VAPES!" http://tailhookdaily.typepad.com/
-
Microsoft ESP (what is that? - no time to check) Hornet Carrier Landing demo video (64Mb):
http://www.topgunsim.com/tgssite/video/Carrier_Ops_640x360_2MB.wmv
MORE ON ESP here: (a new era in virtual simulation)
http://www.microsoft.com/esp/
&
http://www.flightsimx.co.uk/announcements/microsoft-esp-showcases-the-future-of-immersive-simulation-experiences/
"Microsoft ESP simulation solutions at I/ITSEC 2008 include the following:
■The Northrop Grumman simulator demonstrating virtual landing of an F-18 Hornet on the CVN-21 “carrier of the future” incorporating Microsoft ESP, Virtual Earth and Microsoft Surface with Northrop Grumman’s Command and Control Mission Rehearsal (C2MR)
■A Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicle simulator showcasing Microsoft ESP version 2.0’s forthcoming ground-vehicle operations capability
■A helicopter flight simulator revealing Microsoft ESP’s version 2.0 multi-channel display capabilities across three large screens
■The F-16 cockpit trainer from Flight-Dynamix demonstrating the integration of Microsoft ESP version 1.0 into an existing custom hardware simulation solution
■A demonstration produced by the School of Engineering Sciences at the University of Southampton, United Kingdom, made using Microsoft ESP and Windows HPC Server 2008, showing a helicopter landing on a moving ship. A white paper, “Real-Time Computational Fluid Dynamics for Flight Simulation,” describing the process used by the scientists has been published by the I/ITSEC conference."
-
ESP was canceled along with FSX and TS2- same simulator core by the ACES team, so no ACES, no simulator :(.
-
Orion, thanks - did not catch that during my search for ESP. Now I'll have to find out what TS2 was meant to be. ;D
-
Microsoft ESP (what is that? - no time to check) Hornet Carrier Landing demo video (64Mb):
http://www.topgunsim.com/tgssite/video/Carrier_Ops_640x360_2MB.wmv
Thats just a FSX acceleration hornet doing a landing on the carrier the reason why I can tell is no ILS and no AoA bracket on the Hud. Wasn't lack of sales for ESP part of the reason why MS stopped FS series and I think they were in the middle of developing ESP2 when MS made that desicion.
-
Orion, thanks - did not catch that during my search for ESP. Now I'll have to find out what TS2 was meant to be. ;D
http://tsinsider.com/
Microsoft Train Simulator 2 was supposed to be built on the same DX9 graphics engine that Microsoft had developed for FSX and ESP, but will a new fully functional DX10 engine. They had ALOT more vector data for power lines, streams roards, etc... They had fully functioning road crossings with the gates, bells and everything! There were even a few hikers nearby. I was lucky enough to try Train Simulator 2 in the summer 2008 demo at Anaheim. Let's just say it was awesome and leave it at that :P. One thing about the demo at Anaheim was they were showcasing TS2 version of a FSX mission, where they could have placed the people as AI objects, along with the animals in nearby farms, etc... ARGHH!! I just can't remember the system specs of the demo computers. I remember it was an Intel CPU, Nvidia GeForce 8800 or 8600 and 2 or 4 GB of RAM. They were still using the FSX settings and I believe they were all set to like medium high. I asked if I could change some of the settings and I almost and it slowed down to like 7 FPS. Good ol' FSX engine :P.
-
... no ACES, no simulator :(.
Not according to the powers that be over at MS... they claim to remain committed to the FS franchise.
-
Thats just a FSX acceleration hornet doing a landing on the carrier the reason why I can tell is no ILS and no AoA bracket on the Hud. ........[/quote]
missing ILS and AoA bracket on the hood ?
Perhaps you know already, aerosoft f-16 for FSX has more than that
http://www.aerosoft.com/cgi-local/re/iboshop.cgi?showd,,10285
Even a HUD AirToAir mode with target designation box, target aspect angle indication, range to target rectile during the last 12000 feet, target closure speed indication, target altitude and more.
The radar MFD looks and feels similar to the f-18 one. However there is an AN/APG-68 extension making HOTAS control possible.
You know what I mean?
-
yeah....too bad it's an F-16.
-
USN carrier jets need an AoA indexer - does the Aerosoft F-16 mentioned have that?
-
USN carrier jets need an AoA indexer - does the Aerosoft F-16 mentioned have that?
Affirm, full operational indexer - interacting properly with AoA bracket
she even has an animated hook however no launch bar.
-
OK then sounds good. Does the AoA indexer remain steady in the F-16 rather than cycle on and off as is the case with the FSX Accelerator Hornet and Goshawk freeware (very nice) with the hook up? Having to have the hook down in both these cases to get a steady indexer is a pain for FCLP. Having a 'hook bypass' switch for 'hook up steady AoA indexer' would be nice. BTW the T-45C v.1.20 Goshawk by Dino Cattaneo is excellent.
-
IMO best F-16 sim is Falcon 4 and the most detailed avionics is the open Falcon mod for Falcon 4. BTW the hook on the F-16 and F-15 is not for CarrierOps it is instead for emergency landings on airfields.
-
IMO best F-16 sim is Falcon 4 and the most detailed avionics is the open Falcon mod for Falcon 4. BTW the hook on the F-16 and F-15 is not for CarrierOps it is instead for emergency landings on airfields.
Correct , F-16 hook only for emergency landings on airfields.
No doubt, Falcon4 f-16 is superb. Flaw is, she does not work with FSX or fs9.
@ SpazSinbad
The aerosoft f16 indexer shows steady green as long you fly center AoA bracket. When drifting off center the AoA V-bars start to indicate accordingly. There is no indexer on/off cycling. I checked that with hook up. I Check hook down next
-
mangold, thanks then that F-16 looks very useful for practice and something different. I might add that having the AoA indexer cycle ON & OFF for the Accelerator Hornet and Freeware Goshawk is silly (for a sim) even though it may be real world accurate. We know that not everything is modelled in a sim real world accurate so why this? Still and all the above mentioned aircraft are excellent deck landers with the hook down. ;D
-
mangold, thanks then that F-16 looks very useful for practice and something different. I might add that having the AoA indexer cycle ON & OFF for the Accelerator Hornet and Freeware Goshawk is silly (for a sim) even though it may be real world accurate. We know that not everything is modelled in a sim real world accurate so why this? Still and all the above mentioned aircraft are excellent deck landers with the hook down. ;D
Ok, not every thing can be modelled in FSX (aerosoft f-16 indexer flashing during approach with hook deployed is not modelled)
No doubt carrier landings with Accelerator F-18 is a challenging practice.
Something different is an intercept (even in solid IMC thank Sim :)
The picture of aerosoft F-16 HUD in AirToAir mode should be selfexplanatory. Never saw that in any other FSX software. Perhaps sometime VRS FSX F-18???
-
mangold, thanks for screenshot - the F-16 looks impressive.
Not sure if we are saying the same thing here though. I find the 'flashing on/off' AoA indexer in 'Hornet Accelerator with hook up' a stupid choice for the sim. To be fair this is what happens in real world EXCEPT when a 'hook bypass switch' (or whatever it might be called) is made so that with the HOOK UP for FCLP for example the AoA indexer will NOT flash on/off. This 'flashing' is a warning otherwise during carrier landings that the hook is UP - when it ordinarily should be DOWN.
However I would guess most Hornet Accelerator pilots would like to practice landings with the AoA indexer NOT flashing ashore with the HOOK UP. I have to do this with 'the HOOK DOWN ashore' which I guess is no big deal.
I stress that the AoA indexer lights should NOT flash to be usable. Of course the combination of indexer lights will change. However when these lights are 'flashing' the indexer is basically unusable. :-\
-
Well the question is does the real F/A-18 AoA flash? If it does then it is doing what it should be doing.
-
Fair assertion. However how about adding a "hook bypass switch" or similar so that the AoA indexer will not flash when the hook is up for FCLP? Mindlessly sticking to a reality in a sim is silly IMHO when there are not other 'reality switches' to make up 'sim reality' as we see here.
I'll state my point again. Not being able to land the Hornet Accelerator without the hook down - without having the AoA indexer flashing - is a major problem for a Naval Aircraft IMHO.
-
You would have to give the URL for a Hornet launch showing the burner being lit sometime after catapulting. To my knowledge I have seen only catapults with the burner already lit before launch - not during.
you said you wanted a url to show a hornet lightin' the burners down the cat well here it is
One comm response to pilots from the LSO is beacon lock on, I've lways wondered does that mean I have you insight and what does CCB stand for?
-
FWIW IMHO what you see is a NON burner [OR not in full burner] catapult. We just see the flame cans in non (or part) burner at about the point of this screenshot as the round rear of the engine exhausts becomes visible to our viewpoint. The burner is not being lit during the launch - it has been lit since beginning at whatever level it is (or not lit). The burner can be lit at any time though but not in this catapult. To me it is a non issue anyway. There is flexibility about it with perhaps an emphasis on using the burner for safety reasons as the APPROACH article explains earlier. Maybe for CarQuals with a light fuel load for successive arrests and landings a burner catapult is overkill. Otherwise at ordinary launch weight the burner is useful or required. There are many variables about this issue it would appear.
GOOD STUFF HERE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_US_Navy_carrier_air_operations
ALL ABOUT JPALS here: http://acast.grc.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/icns/2002/09/Session_D2-4_Wallace.pdf
PALS beacon?:
FROM CV NATOPS: "5.4.11.2 Aircraft in Company. An aircraft with navigation and/or communication equipment inoperative in the company of an escort aircraft with navigation and communication equipment in working order will be handled as a single aircraft in the recovery procedure.
The escort aircraft becomes the flight leader and will visually communicate with the distressed aircraft in accordance with standard aircraft NATOPS procedures.
The distressed aircraft will assume a position on the starboard wing of the lead aircraft. Transition to landing
configuration should be made clear of clouds either above or below the overcast as desired. The controller
shall be advised when this transition does/will occur.
When the lead aircraft has the OLS in sight, he will visually communicate a lead change and break off to the left.
The distressed aircraft will continue a visual approach to landing. The escort aircraft will parallel the final
bearing course and maintain a position so as to be easily acquired and be rejoined by the distressed aircraft in the event of a bolter or waveoff. Unless otherwise directed, the escort aircraft will repeat the above procedures until the distressed aircraft is recovered and then continue normal procedures for his own recovery.
WARNING
If the address of the escorted aircraft is inserted in the PALS, the escorted aircraft will receive needle information. However, the SPN-42/SPN-46 radar may be locked onto the lead aircraft. When the lead aircraft
breaks away on OLS acquisition, this may give the escorted aircraft an erroneous “fly down, fly right” presentation on the needles.
The displayed error may become progressively larger as both aircraft close on the ship regardless of the approach actually being flown by the escorted aircraft. In order to reduce the potential for this to occur the PALS final controller should instruct lead aircraft “beacon off,” wingman “beacon on” and then select “beacon lock only” on the SPN-42/SPN-46 console."
&
"11. PALS radar beacon-equipped aircraft parked or taxiing aft of the island shall have the beacon switch in off or standby position during recovery operations. Aircraft preparing for launch shall delay PALS beacon self-test until forward of the island or airborne."
ABOVE From CV NATOPS: http://www.skyhawk.org/specials/cv-natops-21oct99.pdf (1999)
See also:
LSO NATOPS manual: http://www.navyair.com/LSO_NATOPS_Manual.pdf (2001)
&
http://www.robertheffley.com/docs/CV_environ/00-80T-104--LSO%20NATOPS.pdf (1997)
&
http://www.vaw120.navy.mil/NATOPS/UE_Instructions/LSO%20NATOPS.pdf (2007)
CCB? Dunno. Configuration Control Board is one possibility. [If you can give a sentence or two for context of the use of CCB that may help to find the meaning of it online.]