Marshaller for POWERback, not pushback?

[justdion]

 Hey mates, just a suggestion for any future updates, but will there be marshallers directing planes while powering away from the gate, rather than using a pushback tug?  DC-9s, B717s, B737-200s, C-17s, and other planes still use that method today.

  For example:

 and  

 (the differences is obviously the plane types  )

        Thanks for reading!, Justin C.  

[justdion]

Of course, I'm not forcing you to do this, whatsoever...  If you do decide to implement such a feature, I'm patient and I can wait as long as you guys need lol 

[Lawgiver]

Great video's.....Didn't think they did that anymore.  Would be a nice option.

Rob

[pete_auau]

Great video's.....Didn't think they did that anymore.  Would be a nice option.

Rob

yea  you find  that  they dont  do this  any more since it  caused   an  aircraft  to  crash  soon after  take  off.   In short what happened    the  aircaft   used this methord since  the  tug   couldnt   push the  aircraft    back  so the  captain  decided to use   reverse  thrust of  his  engines and it all the snow  was  blown  back onto  to   the  wings  and  formed   back to ice.  and the  aircraft   than   didnt   do a  de  ice  since  it  had  it  done  b4   so  when  it  tried  to  take  off  it  only  manged  to fly  a further  2  kms  b4  it crashed  due  to lack of  lift.   Official   cause  of  the  crash was determined  by using  the  unathorised use  reversers  during  pushback 

[marvic]

Also Powerback creates a lot noise close to the terminal and higher risk of debris ingestion in the engines as told to me from a Westjet Pilot...........

[Lawgiver]

yea  you find  that  they dont  do this  any more since it  caused   an  aircraft  to  crash  soon after  take  off.   In short what happened    the  aircaft   used this methord since  the  tug   couldnt   push the  aircraft    back  so the  captain  decided to use   reverse  thrust of  his  engines and it all the snow  was  blown  back onto  to   the  wings  and  formed   back to ice.  and the  aircraft   than   didnt   do a  de  ice  since  it  had  it  done  b4   so  when  it  tried  to  take  off  it  only  manged  to fly  a further  2  kms  b4  it crashed  due  to lack of  lift.   Official   cause  of  the  crash was determined  by using  the  unathorised use  reversers  during  pushback 

Hi Pete,

You wouldn't happen to know the carrier or location where that happened by any chance.  I would like to find out some additional info.

Regards,
Rob

[pete_auau]

yea  you find  that  they dont  do this  any more since it  caused   an  aircraft  to  crash  soon after  take  off.   In short what happened    the  aircaft   used this methord since  the  tug   couldnt   push the  aircraft    back  so the  captain  decided to use   reverse  thrust of  his  engines and it all the snow  was  blown  back onto  to   the  wings  and  formed   back to ice.  and the  aircraft   than   didnt   do a  de  ice  since  it  had  it  done  b4   so  when  it  tried  to  take  off  it  only  manged  to fly  a further  2  kms  b4  it crashed  due  to lack of  lift.   Official   cause  of  the  crash was determined  by using  the  unathorised use  reversers  during  pushback 

Hi Pete,

You wouldn't happen to know the carrier or location where that happened by any chance.  I would like to find out some additional info.


Hi  found  the info  u need  it  was  a   air florida  737  flight  90      on the  jan13   1982    left    washington  national airport    and  crashed  into the  potomac river   only  5  surviours  were  found..    Just google   airflorida  aircrashes   and  till u find  the   flight90

Regards,
Rob

[Lawgiver]

Thanks for the info Pete.

Rob

[caffman263]

Great video's.....Didn't think they did that anymore.  Would be a nice option.

Rob

yea  you find  that  they dont  do this  any more since it  caused   an  aircraft  to  crash  soon after  take  off.   In short what happened    the  aircaft   used this methord since  the  tug   couldnt   push the  aircraft    back  so the  captain  decided to use   reverse  thrust of  his  engines and it all the snow  was  blown  back onto  to   the  wings  and  formed   back to ice.  and the  aircraft   than   didnt   do a  de  ice  since  it  had  it  done  b4   so  when  it  tried  to  take  off  it  only  manged  to fly  a further  2  kms  b4  it crashed  due  to lack of  lift.   Official   cause  of  the  crash was determined  by using  the  unathorised use  reversers  during  pushback 

There was quite a lot more to that crash than just trying to powerback in the snow.. Although I'm not sure why they thought that was a good idea in a 737 at all, the manual specifically prohibits it. The aircraft that can do this all have tail mounted engines, and it's increasingly rare for the other reasons mentioned. The big one is FOD (Foreign Object Damage) risk.

[pete_auau]

in this  case  it  was  the  cause of  it  being  the  snow  being blown back on the  wings

[MatzeH84]

The Eastern Airways Jetsream 41's power back time to time.. it's the first video when you search for 'Jetsream Pushback' on youtube.

[pete_auau]

yea  but props  are  different there  engines  are  in front of  the  wings   so they  dont  get  any  snow  or  debris  being  blown  back into the engines  or  wings  as  do  jet engines  when  they use  reverse  thrust

[caffman263]

in this  case  it  was  the  cause of  it  being  the  snow  being blown back on the  wings

No, it really wasn't. The accident was caused by improper de-icing by ground crew, the flight crew's failure to be de-iced again after snow accumulated on the wings, and failure to use engine anti-ice which lead to improper EPR settings on takeoff from a short, wet runway. The only mention of power back is that they (against procedure) attempted it when the tug got stuck in the snow. Frankly, the little bit of snow that would have been blown back, if any, would be far outweighed by the snow falling from the sky as it was still snowing.

NTSB report:http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/ntsb/aircraft-accident-reports/AAR82-08.pdf

The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause
of this accident was the flightcrew’s failure to use engine anti-ice during ground operation
and takeoff, their decision to take off with snow/ice on the airfoil surfaces of the
aircraft, and the captain’s failure to reject the takeoff during the early stage when his
attention was called to anomalous engine instrument readings. Contributing to the
accident were the prolonged ground delay between deicing and the receipt of ATC takeoff
clearance during which the airplane was exposed to continual precipitation, the known
inherent pitchup characteristics of the B-737 aircraft when the leading edge is
contaminated with even small amounts of snow or ice, and the limited exwence of the
flightcrew in jet transport winter operations

Simple version: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Florida_Flight_90

[pete_auau]

heres  a different  version
The investigation of the crash concluded that the combination of the crew's use of thrust reverse on the ground, and their failure to active the engine anti-ice system, caused the crash. By failing to activate the engine anti-ice, the large amouts of snow and ice that were sucked into the engines during reverse thrust use was allowed to remain there, unchallenged. The ice buildup on the compressor inlet pressure probe, the probe which measures engine power, can cause false readings, as was the case here. The indications in the cockpit showed an Engine Pressure Ratio of 2.04, while the power plants were in reality only producing 1.70 EPR, or about 70% of available power. The combination of the ice covered wings and low power caused an immediate stall on takeoff that resulted in 74 lives lost.

 so  this  was  the same  version that  was  shown on the  tv series aircraft crash  investiagtion   that was  shown here  the oithe r nite


  http://www.airdisaster.com/special/special-af90.shtml