Author Topic: Greenie Board Possibilities?  (Read 144257 times)

Sludge

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1110
  • SQUEEZING EVERY NICKEL of life for all its worth!
    • SludgeHornet.NET
Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #90 on: April 21, 2011, 06:58:30 am »
Serge...

Seriously, no pressure.  Do whatever you have to do to get this thing as right as you can.  Yeah, I have that same problem.  When I'm modding, a big "hold on a second, what's the point of this?" question will pop in my head, then I have to figure it out before going on.

Definately sounds awesome, so take whatever time you need, and I'm really not harrassing you or asking you to "hurry up", Im just runnin my yap and trying to be a little funny.

As far as your questions, I would say a standard RoD would be 700 fpm.  I'll try to get a quote out of LSO NATOPS or even the LSO Guidebook they use at the LSO Schoolhouse.  That being said, in FSX, we may have to UP it to 750 as the 3.99 carrier Meatball glideslope means a higher RoD IF you fly the meatball and/or ICLS needles properly.

Here's a reference to the LSO Guidebook, if you dont already have it.
www.sludgehornet.com/downloads/NavalAviation_Pubs/LSO.pdf
(note: pdf pg.206, WOD para, #8. WOD greater than 40 kts...) I mention this, because FSX is setup for a 3.99 Meatball basic angle, and so that means higher WoD requirements.  And that means higher RoD.

I'll fly FSX tonight and try to verify what I just talked about, ok?

Nor am I sure about Right/Left Wing down but I'll look into that too.

EDIT:  Link FIXED.

Later
Sludge
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 09:14:36 am by Sludge »

SpazSinbad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1198
  • RAN FAA: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/
    • A4G Skyhawk & Fixed Wing history scrapbook PDFs & videos RAN FAA + How to Deck Land Various Aircraft
Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #91 on: April 21, 2011, 09:38:06 am »
Sludge, I keep looking for the new version of the LSO Reference Manual that was finalised in 2010 and likely to be available online some time but no luck so far.

I don't know if this chart is useful but it may be for the 'time to touchdown' with glideslope at 4 degrees from:

Final Report of Phase 1 — A Study for the Development of Improved Landing Aids - Feb 1964

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=AD432067&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf
« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 09:56:21 am by SpazSinbad »
https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/
RAN FAA A4G NAS Nowra ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀ :-)

GOONIE

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 483
Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #92 on: April 21, 2011, 05:52:26 pm »
Spaz,

In the April "Paddles" monthly (attached), they talk about the new CV/LSO NATOPS PCL. Is that what you are looking for? Looks like they are in beta testing of the new PCL, will be cool when someone can get their hands on it.

Serge,

Trend spotting sounds awesome, and extremely complicated, kudos for looking into this and continuing to work on making a very capable vLSO. Can't wait!

-CAPT
"You've got to land here, son. This is where the food is."

SpazSinbad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1198
  • RAN FAA: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/
    • A4G Skyhawk & Fixed Wing history scrapbook PDFs & videos RAN FAA + How to Deck Land Various Aircraft
Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #93 on: April 22, 2011, 12:27:25 am »
capthaltli, thanks. And thanks to Sludge earlier I go to that hrana.org whatever page regularly to download the latest LSO Newsletter PDF. The LSO NATOPS PCL (Pocket Check List) is the LSO NATOPS condensed into a smaller package with cardboard metal ringbound pages.

http://www.hrana.org/  (go to lower right of this page for LSO Newsletter)

The LSO Reference Manual PDF will be weighter I guess - similar to the decade old edition probably - just updated etc.
https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/
RAN FAA A4G NAS Nowra ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀ :-)

Sludge

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1110
  • SQUEEZING EVERY NICKEL of life for all its worth!
    • SludgeHornet.NET
Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #94 on: April 22, 2011, 07:06:57 am »
Spaz...

Hey, do you have the newer Hornet Landing Approach Speed Chart?  Specifically, the one with the 404-GE-402 engine specs?  I have the one with the -400 specs and use it now for carrier landings.  I also have the F/A-18ABCD NATOPS but it doesnt have the performance data section included.  I think thats a whole 'nother Pub?

Anyway, if you have that chart for the -402 engine, can you post it?

Thanks
Sludge

SpazSinbad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1198
  • RAN FAA: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/
    • A4G Skyhawk & Fixed Wing history scrapbook PDFs & videos RAN FAA + How to Deck Land Various Aircraft
Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #95 on: April 22, 2011, 09:52:20 am »
Not sure where this came from - perhaps from an old deleted thread?
https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/
RAN FAA A4G NAS Nowra ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀ :-)

Sludge

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1110
  • SQUEEZING EVERY NICKEL of life for all its worth!
    • SludgeHornet.NET
Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #96 on: April 25, 2011, 09:24:46 pm »
Serge...

Still working on getting TMRD and NERD values for you.  I did a whole buncha test traps this weekend testing out some mods I just posted, but when I get home, Ill actually concentrate on flying some passes and getting some specific numbers for you.

Also, I dont know if your vLSO mission already does this but I was thinking it should be "in sync" with the carrier waveoff lights?  Both the low and high altitude waveoff lights.  If you dont already have those numbers, Ill try to get them tonight, so you can implement them into your mission.  That way, if the vLSO gives a waveoff, the Meatball will be flashing the same thing.

Spaz...

Thanks for the chart.  Put it to good use this weekend, doing modding/testing carrier passes.

Later
Sludge

Sludge

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1110
  • SQUEEZING EVERY NICKEL of life for all its worth!
    • SludgeHornet.NET
Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #97 on: April 25, 2011, 09:31:06 pm »
CAPT...

Spaz,

In the April "Paddles" monthly (attached), they talk about the new CV/LSO NATOPS PCL. Is that what you are looking for? Looks like they are in beta testing of the new PCL, will be cool when someone can get their hands on it.

Serge,

Trend spotting sounds awesome, and extremely complicated, kudos for looking into this and continuing to work on making a very capable vLSO. Can't wait!

-CAPT

Good to know bout that LSO PCL.  Will have to keep our eye open and try to get our hands on one.  

Its funny how even the LSO guys are using GEEK terms now: "...in actuality it is more of a 'beta test' version made available..."
(kinda sounds like something I'd say on these boards) haha.

BTW, did you read all the articles in the magazine?  What about the VX guy discussing how FPAH (flight path attitude hold) and ROLL HOLD, combined with ATC APP can make a damn near hands off approach for a Super?  But they couldnt test/certify it cause the Navy ran out of project-specific money.  Typical.
Plus, his theory about getting a speed-compensated velocity vector.  Sheesh.  If that could be done with one button press after the datalink was established, you'd have a completely corrected flight path v/vector for carrier landings.

Another "Oh golly, gee whiz"-thing I found out is that a TILT incidication on the right HUD means losing the datalink for over 10 secs.  Nothing we can mod but did alot of reading this weekend, so I think I'm the wizard of information now.

Later
Sludge
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 09:48:55 pm by Sludge »

Paddles

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 721
  • Lurking around
    • vLSO blog
Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #98 on: April 26, 2011, 06:57:48 am »
... your vLSO mission ... should be "in sync" with the carrier waveoff lights?  Both the low and high altitude waveoff lights.  If you dont already have those numbers, Ill try to get them tonight, so you can implement them into your mission.  That way, if the vLSO gives a waveoff, the Meatball will be flashing the same thing.

Sludge,
The glideslope geometry is well described in many LSO related manuals, that's cool. My previous FCLP missions follow the geometry pretty close and the future vLSO mission will follow too. But the carrier FLOLS is a gauge, implementing so called light plane technique, which depends on aircraft's relative position only. For each meatball light cell there are certain angle limits, and when the aircraft is within these limits, FSX engine turns that light on, and vice versa. This way you can see the meatball going up/down as your aircraft goes above/below the glideslope. The same technique was implemented in my Mk.14 IFLOLS. But there is no user's in-game control over it...

In many cases that's no problem, but what if you start high and still keep high in the middle? Right, you should inevitably be waved-off in close (but still being in that 'steady meatball' GS limit). You will hear LSO's 'Waveoff!" calls, but won't see the waveoff lights flash. The same will be for large lateral deviations...
I wish I could control waveoff lights of the FLOLS.  ;)
Want it done right? Do it yourself!


SpazSinbad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1198
  • RAN FAA: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/
    • A4G Skyhawk & Fixed Wing history scrapbook PDFs & videos RAN FAA + How to Deck Land Various Aircraft
Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #99 on: April 26, 2011, 07:34:35 am »
It only gets easier.... Just the other day the F-35B did a fully automatic (no pilot involved - just pressed the button) vertical landing for the first time. The F-35C with JPALS precision will do such 'auto landings' very nicely. However some old info (when President Bush was doing his first carrier landing back in 2003) will clarify day landings anyway. The first part of this article is a bit 'suspect' [about nuts & bolts] but this last part quoted below is worthwhile:

Aircraft carrier landings are ‘highly automated’ – May 01, 2003

http://donaldmsensing.blogspot.com/2003/05/aircraft-carrier-landings-are-highly.html

“Update: I spoke this morning to a retired rear admiral whom I know. He was a naval aviator who commanded a carrier battle group before he retired. He said:
     True hands-off landings are indeed possible. In fact, a third to almost half of all carrier landings are hands-off landings. Patterns for autolanding are extended and final approach to the deck typically does start up to a mile away from the ship's stern.
     In daytime with good weather, pilots almost always land the plane themselves, though. Manual-control patterns are very tight; the pilot will swivel to wings-level for final approach only about 1/4 [3/4] mile away. He is in constant communication with the landing signal officer on the deck and uses the optical systems I described above. The admiral said that once you do enough of these landings they actually become fun. Nighttime manual landings are never fun, he said, except after combat missions because then any landing is fun – certainly more than being shot at!
     Tight patterns are the most efficient for aircraft recovery because they permit the shortest intervals between landings, as short as 20 seconds or so. Autolanding systems are not used for tight patterns because there is not enough time for the pilot to check them out before landing. Autolanding systems are almost invariably used in bad weather or rough seas.
     He guessed that the landing for President Bush's aircraft will be a tight-pattern, manual landing because it's the best "show" for the president. Especially since Bush was a fighter pilot himself and can be relied on not to toss his cookies!
     The admiral's son flies Vikings now, the same plane Bush will ride. The Viking is a very stable plane and has the ability to "dump" lift right over the fantail of the flight deck. There is a button on the pilot's controls that activates a mechanical means that reduces the wing's lift by up to 85 percent. So it can be landed on the deck with great certainty.
     There is a "bubble" of turbulent air about 100 feet off the carrier created by the moving mass of the ship. The faster the ship is going, the bigger the bubble. Pilots have to correct for how the bubble affects their landing descent, but this is a known problem.”
https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/
RAN FAA A4G NAS Nowra ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀ :-)

Sludge

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1110
  • SQUEEZING EVERY NICKEL of life for all its worth!
    • SludgeHornet.NET
Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #100 on: April 26, 2011, 07:24:59 pm »
Serge...

Copy all.  So is there anything else you need?

Spaz...

That all SOUNDS good, but that'll be IF the F-35 finally makes it to the fleet or ends up being another F-22.  All airshow, no combat.  Right now, that thing is completely surrounded by bureaucratic BULL, I'm taking bets on whether it will make it to the fleet in 10 years.  Again, another US military industrial complex money-mismanagement boondoggle.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=5484169

Cutting corner, constantly running into new problems and upping the unit price to "fix" them, the "we've invested too much money to cut this now" mentality.  Sounds alot like the F-22 program, doesn't it?

Later
Sludge
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 07:31:54 pm by Sludge »

SpazSinbad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1198
  • RAN FAA: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/
    • A4G Skyhawk & Fixed Wing history scrapbook PDFs & videos RAN FAA + How to Deck Land Various Aircraft
Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #101 on: April 26, 2011, 11:15:58 pm »
Sludge, I have tried to follow from situation in Oz - as best I can as a civilian - the progress of the F-35 for about three years. Was not really interested before then until Australia decided to buy a bunch. Then once we decided to buy two LHDs with ski jumps there was a possibility - however remote - that F-35Bs may be bought later on to use them. It was very interesting when the RN FAA developed the Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing for their CVFs but then decided late last year to buy F-35Cs instead of F-35Bs leaving only the USMC to only develop SRVLs for faint hope use on CVNs. Then the USMC decided to buy some F-35Cs to reduce risk and mollify the USN.  ;D So all the good NEW things for the F-35B have faded somewhat.

However it will be a good aircraft when in service. In Australia we are used to aircraft taking a long time to develop - the F-111 is a good example. There are a lot of potential new tecnologies and uses for the F-35 in our RAAF. You can see me finding out stuff about the F-35B & C models (even though our RAAF is buying potentially 100 F-35As) here:

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewforum-f-22-sid-0587c62982627af42ae1b5b727c179f2.html

I started a very long thread about small carrier/LHD F-35B issues here: (probably best to start at the end and work backwards these days to pick and choose information that may interest)

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-12631.html

Other threads look at some F-35C info such as the Optimum AoA and weight etc. (info gained from the LSO newsletters).
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 11:21:18 pm by SpazSinbad »
https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/
RAN FAA A4G NAS Nowra ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀ :-)

Sludge

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1110
  • SQUEEZING EVERY NICKEL of life for all its worth!
    • SludgeHornet.NET
Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #102 on: April 27, 2011, 08:32:31 am »
Spaz...

Sorry bout my rant on this thread.  Sometimes, I read stuff and get off track.  I completely disagree about the F-35, but I'll meet ya at a PM, and we can yap about it there.  Lets not get off track on this thread.

Serge...

Let us know if you have anymore questions/requests, and hopefully we can answer.  And I'll try to keep my Off-Topic rants to a minimum.  Sorry.

Later
Sludge

SpazSinbad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1198
  • RAN FAA: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/
    • A4G Skyhawk & Fixed Wing history scrapbook PDFs & videos RAN FAA + How to Deck Land Various Aircraft
Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #103 on: April 27, 2011, 09:32:34 am »
Sludge, Unless you would like specific information PM me, however I'm just interested in the F-35 for reasons explained. What you or anyone else thinks of it is no matter to me at all. However your post needed a response so we can leave it at that. If you visit the forums indicated you will see I get plenty of advice one way or the other.  ;D  And I make up my own mind. No worries.  ;D
https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/
RAN FAA A4G NAS Nowra ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀ :-)

Sludge

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1110
  • SQUEEZING EVERY NICKEL of life for all its worth!
    • SludgeHornet.NET
Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #104 on: April 27, 2011, 04:02:36 pm »
Spaz...

Yeah, same here, what you think about it doesnt matter to me at all either.  I was just ranting and took the thread off-topic and thats why I apologized.  My point was that I need to stay on topic for the Greenie Board thread AND Serge's vLSO program, not why I dislike the F-35 or F-22 programs.  Those are for another board and/or another thread.

Later
Sludge