Greenie Board Possibilities?

[SpazSinbad]

Anyone know an LSO? Most I know from years ago have lost their memory.  

I can imagine that 'B' means a flat glideslope within the glideslope parameters going from low to high but FLAT.

I can imagine that 'NERD' means just that - someone NOT near the glideslope HIGH and not getting enough rate of descent to get to the glideslope. How to have a rampstrike if you catch up near the ramp.

RUF is just that. Rough and not so skillful changes can be well - rough. Especially if done closer in. In matters of degree I would suggest it is in the eye of the beholder. Certainly the LSO wants you to be less rough by being more skilful, having more anticipation. A classic LSO saying is: "don't wait for the ball to move but anticipate and certainly do not wait for a call from the LSO before making a correction."

[Paddles]

I can imagine that 'B' means a flat glideslope within the glideslope parameters going from low to high but FLAT.

I can imagine that 'NERD' means just that - someone NOT near the glideslope HIGH and not getting enough rate of descent to get to the glideslope.

So, something like (H)IM-(H)IC?

RUF is just that. Rough and not so skillful changes can be well - rough. Especially if done closer in. In matters of degree I would suggest it is in the eye of the beholder. Certainly the LSO wants you to be less rough by being more skilful, having more anticipation. A classic LSO saying is: "don't wait for the ball to move but anticipate and certainly do not wait for a call from the LSO before making a correction."

We'll better leave this up to a human LSO, not a virtual, for it's too complex and subjective, right?

[SpazSinbad]

RUF seems to me to be subjective as you suggest fsxnp. Personally I don't think it is necessary to model all the LSO cryptics. I think the 'flat' illustration is good while it could be more subtle than your illustration if you follow. Put more descent on the 'flat' glideslope should do it IMHO.

Probably as long as the 'marking' is consistent and it is clear what the parameters are then any approach can be followed with or without the comments from the LSO. In real life (probably not doing initial FCLP) the LSO says nothing. Then whatever comments are made during debrief they are meant for the pilot's viewpoint. So any marking/comment from the computer LSO is probably irrelevant except if the pilot knows these things beforehand.

I hope it is clear that the LSO tries to say very little during a carrier approach and ideally says nothing. It is only for initial FCLP or some gross error from bad conditions on deck that the LSO starts to jabber. There is nothing worse than the LSO talking unnecessarily and they know it. However when they do talk and if they need to talk then the pilot knows to listen. 

Don't get me wrong - it is a good idea but implementing it from the virtual LSO viewpoint seems to be a bit difficult. However if the pilot knows this from the start then I don't see any problem with having the computer LSO do the scoring the best way it can be implemented. Any participants know that the scoring is equal in that sense for all participants.

Can this 'marking' be modelled during FCLP also?

[Paddles]

So, going 'flat' means steadily going up within the glideslope OK margins, i.e. +/- 0.3 degree? I'd call this as a 'micro /' 

Down to LSO talking... Why not to make it adjustable, say from 'initial FCLP' to 'zip-lip' level or something? That won't be a problem, I guess.

Finally, I think I'll be able to modify my FCLP missions so they'll be compatible with this future vLSO...

[SpazSinbad]

I guess 'flat' is a trend which if not corrected will result in a waveoff. Probably the pilot is unaware of the 'flat' tendency because aircraft carrying too much power and going a little fast perhaps or vice versa until a bigger trend takes over. The point is NOT to be smooth. FLAT implies smoothness unnecessarily to me. These are only my UNlso opinions. It takes an LSO to really explain these terms. Otherwise we can only guess.

For example during the debrief the LSO will explain if required. If one is fully qualified there is nothing much to it. Grade/Wire and a comment if necessary. Perhaps he will say something about a trend or something the pilot may have done out of the ordinary.

I think documentaries and movies make a big deal out of the LSO talking because otherwise he has a dull job from a bystander viewpoint. Sure it gets exciting during an emergency or at night. 

Trouble is at night no one can see anything - including the LSO and pilot. That is why the LSO has a seeing eye dog. 

[Sludge]

Anyone know an LSO? Most I know from years ago have lost their memory.  

Spaz...

I've talked to TWO LSOs in real life and was just D-U-M dumb to not stay in contact with either.  Both woulda been helpful right now.  Guess I just didn't want to impose myself on them, as they have real life jobs and whatnot.

The first was an EARLY Legacy ALPHA Hornet driver who was an LSO.  I met him and a KC-135 pilot (hmm, coincidence?) while playing golf in Hawaii.  Its the story I told here when we were on the fairway right next to 08 runway, Hawaii Intl, and as this 767 is doing an approach, I call out "202, 3/4 of a mile call the ball.." and go on to do some LSO'ish commentary.  The guy looks at me laughs, asks me where I learned to LSO, and I said "FSX".  So he finishes up my psuedo-LSO mumbo-jumbo with a "pass debrief" that included: "202, you were flat at the ramp coming into the wires."

The other was last year at the Alliance airshow, I talked to a CAG LSO (Prowler driver, transitioning to the Growler/Grizzly).  The main thing I remember is when I asked him: "youre looking to get these guys the optimum 3 wire approach?"  He says "no, we (LSOs) want to keep them safe and consistent on their passes."  And I guess he knew his crap as his Prowler has the safety "S" and he pointed out they got it for having the "safest" boarding rates for PacFleet.

I can imagine that 'NERD' means just that - someone NOT near the glideslope HIGH and not getting enough rate of descent to get to the glideslope. How to have a rampstrike if you catch up near the ramp.

I always thought 'NERD' meant one of us guys writing on forums about virtual jets?

I guess 'flat' is a trend which if not corrected will result in a waveoff. Probably the pilot is unaware of the 'flat' tendency because aircraft carrying too much power and going a little fast perhaps or vice versa until a bigger trend takes over. The point is NOT to be smooth. FLAT implies smoothness unnecessarily to me. These are only my UNlso opinions. It takes an LSO to really explain these terms. Otherwise we can only guess.

For example during the debrief the LSO will explain if required. If one is fully qualified there is nothing much to it. Grade/Wire and a comment if necessary. Perhaps he will say something about a trend or something the pilot may have done out of the ordinary.

Spaz...

When I talked to that CAG LSO, he also said that something about "Flat" thats usually a debriefing comment.  When a guy overcorrects to a high-ball, drops the power to center the ball (not good), then gets too high RoD, puts too much power on the jet as its AR, and results in a "flat" (500 or less RoD) glideslope "in the wires"?

The reason I say "not good" is that a pilot is supposed to accept a high ball at the ramp or closer.  "Keep what you have", take the 4 wire or bolter. Centering a high-ball AR or closer could overstress the gear, too high - RoD.

Later
Sludge

[SpazSinbad]

Not being an LSO I can only guess at what the terms LSOs use - especially today for Hornets and better. However I hope it is clear these or similar terms have been spoken to me often in different ways depending on circumstances. We can all put too much emphasis on trying to define them. However the virtual LSO defines them we will adjust to - in the same way we adjust to whatever the glideslope will be - rightly or wrongly.

The main point is to 'fly the ball'. Fly a good approach and it looks good and you will get an OK. It will look smooth to boot. However the 'after' view from inside the cockpit (which is a very artificial feature of FSX) is not always the same thing.

In real life there is the outside view from the PLAT cameras and the LSO notebook + APARTS and pilot memory. That is it. Personally I would like to see the notebook LSO symbols used rather than the APARTS symbols if that is possible?

[GOONIE]

Serge,

I just uploaded the 3rd update to the LSO sound files (for the TGS mission) on AVSIM (file name "LSO Sound Update 3"), should be available for download in 24hrs. Please feel free to use any of these sound files for the new mission you are working on.

New audio updates include:
-Marshall instructions triggered when 10 miles from the ship, with a "dirty up" call
-Tanker call from mother with angles (would be cool if any new mission included a tanker)
-Time mark from mother
-Mother weather and tanker instructions/fuel
-After the six trap, you get "welcome to the fleet awesome job"
-few other tweaks and adjustments

If anyone knows of any other good sources for LSO and marshall audio, please let me know, would be happy to add to the inventory.

[SpazSinbad]

Slightly OFF TOPIC but when researching/looking for new LSO Reference Manual 2010 found this item about LSOs using a PALM handheld device instead of a spiral bound notebook - I'm wondering what symbols/text is used:

http://investor.palm.com/common/download/download.cfm?companyid=PALM&fileid=240936&filekey=13442745-0c5b-4d80-86e3-7ef0550937c2&filename=340513.pdf  (21Kb)

"...Landing Signal Officers (LSOs) aboard Navy aircraft carriers are
responsible for grading and evaluating each aircraft landing for safety and
accuracy. The software developers, Ken Schneider and Michael LaPaglia, are two
naval aviators who applied their own programming skills to improve the
existing LSO grading process. To eliminate an antiquated data-collection
process once completed with a paper notebook and pen, the officers developed a
software application called PASS. The application runs on Palm handhelds and
allows LSOs to electronically grade by pilot and aircraft, and to input
comments for each landing.

Previously, grades from a paper notebook were manually re-entered into a
PC database, resulting in redundant work and inefficient use of time. With
PASS, LSOs eliminate hours of redundant data entry by electronically capturing
the landing data and then uploading the information directly from the handheld
to the Navy network via a simple HotSync® operation. Additionally, the
software helps increase overall flight-deck safety due to the reduced time
commitment necessary for data entry between successive landings.

"Since the first versions appeared in 1999, the PASS application has been
perfected and distributed throughout naval aviation," said Kyra Hawn,
spokesperson for the Pacific Fleet naval air force. "Today, this software is
part of the official curriculum for Landing Signal Officers' training. The
system has eliminated much of the tedious paperwork that used to occupy
officers for hours. Everyone associated with this project should be proud of
their contribution, and we thank Post Newsweek Tech Media Group for
recognizing Navy innovators...."

[SpazSinbad]

This graphic from a PPT presentation that is otherwise not relevant to topic.

[Paddles]

Spaz,
Obviously, these guys are making grade records with such device:



Sludge,
Thanks! Will d/l this pack as soon it's available on Avsim

[SpazSinbad]

fsxnp: Fair enough. News to me. Where did that pic come from please. Thanks. I'll add this or similar to PDF along with the PALM/PASS info.

[Paddles]

Here it is http://cdn.wn.com/pd/42/cb/10d02612460059ff14fb2701dfce_grande.jpg
The other day I asked google to find some LSO pictures and got a bunch of them

[SpazSinbad]

Hmmm, never thought of Googie. As mentioned just found PALM info so it takes a while for me to 'get my act together'. Thanks for link.

EDIT: Zooming in on the pic to me it looks like the LSOs are looking at a graph in their SPIRAL NOTEBOOK - note spirals on right hand side. When time I'll look for other PALM device pics.

[Paddles]

Yes, when zoomed in, it looks like a usual notebook. However it is more advanced - colored pages and all...