Greenie Board Possibilities?

[GOONIE]

This is a question for all the FSX mission developers on this forum.

As some of you might remember, TopGun Simulation came out with a mission a few years ago (no longer in business or operating), that was able to keep track of your performance for six carrier traps which you could then load online for a LSO debrief and score (Greenie Board). I remember you had to load a separate piece of software that had to be running in the background while you flew the approaches (I assume this is where the magic happened or tracking of your flight performance).

I was curious if any FSX mission developers have looked at the TGS mission file to see how they captured/tracked your flight performance for the Greenie Board scores online, and if it is possible to recreate a mission with the Sludge hornet and other updates (i.e. correct aircraft carrier speed) that also tracks each of your approaches and collects scores for your review later? I am not sure how much of the tracking was a function of the mission they developed and how much was a function of the extra software they required you to install and have running.

What do you guys think? We know it is possible based on the TGS work, and if I had the FSX SDK and knew how to create missions I would give it a go. Just wanted to throw it out there for discussion. Could be a fun way to setup a greenie board for the Sludge Hornet.

-Capt

[fael097]

if making anything for fsx was a little more user friendly i'd give it a try, but i dont have the time to do so, the way it currently is.

hopefully someone might consider

[Razgriz]

If I knew simconnect and export traps to a MySQL database, I could use the greenie board available here:

http://www.sludgehornet.com/GreenieBoard/Blank%20Example/GreenieBoard.html

[Orion]

Nevermind.

[Herbie]

How about this poor man system I have? Boy is this Hard, where are wire #2 and 3? Herb

[Paddles]

...I remember you had to load a separate piece of software that had to be running in the background while you flew the approaches (I assume this is where the magic happened or tracking of your flight performance).

I was curious if any FSX mission developers have looked at the TGS mission file to see how they captured/tracked your flight performance for the Greenie Board scores online, and if it is possible to recreate a mission with the Sludge hornet and other updates (i.e. correct aircraft carrier speed) that also tracks each of your approaches and collects scores for your review later? I am not sure how much of the tracking was a function of the mission they developed and how much was a function of the extra software they required you to install and have running.

Well, the SDK provides a developer so-called Custom Actions:


So, a mission tracks your aircraft's position and 'grades' your approaches. It then sends this 'grade' information to a SimConnect program, which collects the data and shows you that greenie board whenever you need it. It's pretty easy.  I could create such a mission (or missions set), generating custom actions and sending some useful data to a SimConnect application, but I have no experience in making SimConnect programs so far. Alas...

[Orion]

Nevermind.

[Sludge]

Serge...

Would be super cool if you could get that information to update.  I messaged CAPT elsewhere and told him that once I get some time, Ill try to find and talk to the guys who made the TGS Traps missions.  Especially if we can get those already built "control zones" enabled with a Javier Carrier instead of their slow-moving (10 kt) default carrier, that would be a good first step.  But Id have to talk them into giving us the pre-release code and get permission to work on it.

Actually, in the meantime, IF you have time... Id suggest using your FCLP mission as a baseline testing platform, if you know how to install those "control zones" (not sure what to call them), where if you deviate you get an LSO call "power, come left, come right"... in the TGS Trap missions.

Then, once we figured out how to pull the flight data and corrections and what-not and setup a grading criteria... we'd have to work it into a database like Raz is talking about, so it would auto update.

Let me know what you think

Later
Sludge

[GOONIE]

FSXNavypilot,
Thanks for the info and for the encouraging words, "It's pretty easy", but you are very capable in creating missions, your FCLP missions are great, and your experience making "control zones" is going to be really helpful I think for any Greenie Board created. It sounds like SimConnect is the biggest hurdle, I have never used or heard of it before. If you have time to look into SimConnect and can find a solution that would be awesome. I think it could be used for some fun competition for all the sim hornet pilots here  

Sludge,
That would be great if you could get in contact with the TGS folks, they were trail blazers for this Greenie Board concept. I agree, that with a few corrections to the carriers speed, updated javiers carrier textures, and the sludge hornet, we could have a great mission on our hands.

Raz,
Definitely like the Greenie Board you have created, just needs this mission or tool through SimConnect and we can start populating it with OK3s!

Herbie,
Nice idea, looks like you got a 1 wire, but that might have been due to the double vision on your HUD symbology, hope you were not drinking and flying  

Orion,
I don’t mind.

Thanks for all the feedback, hope we can make this happen!

[Paddles]

Ok, guys,
Looks like SimConnect is no more a problem, so we can discuss the Greenie Board idea in more details.

Here is my vision, or concept, of this:

The player flies a mission, which sends certain messages to a program, running in background. The messages describe aircraft's position, relative to the glideslope. The program gathers these messages, processes, or grades, and keeps them locally in a form, suitable for further analysis. I think that real-life APARTS' concept would be useful for this purpose. Here's an excerpt from NAVAIR 00-80T-104 (NATOPS LANDING SIGNAL OFFICER MANUAL), Figure 11-2 attached:

11.3.1 Automated Performance Assessment and Readiness Training System (APARTS)
APARTS is a computer software program designed to assist the LSO in recording and analyzing pilot and LSO carrier landing performance information. The system provides various summaries for individual pilots, squadrons, or an entire air wing. The results may be displayed on the computer screen or printed out for a hard copy record (Figure 11-2).

Some of the data (say, date, time, name and grade), collected by this program, could then be sent to a server, maintaining the Greenie Board.

So, this is merely a concept and I'm intentionally not getting in more technical details right now

Any ideas, suggestions?

[GOONIE]

FSXNavyPilot,

Great news! It sounds like you have figured out SimConnect?

I like your idea of mimicking APARTS. Does NATOPS give any guidance on how deviations and their severity are used to determine a Grade? I feel this is the tricky part of the logic, for example would three minor deviations (glideslope IM, IC, AR) equate to one severe deviation AR (ie being low/slow) and affect the landing grade in a similar way. The APARTS output looks like a great format to show deviations (glideslope/lineup/power) and wire caught. The final grade (OK3) could be fed into a Greenie Board format like Raz put together. 

FSXNavyPilot, do you have the originial TGS files? I do not know how to open the ATG.mission3.spd and look at the file in its entirety (I use notepad and can see most of the file). I used this file when I generated my updated LSO audio files, and while looking through the file I noticed a large section which appears to contain all of the conformance monitoring criteria and proximity triggers which I assume fed SimConnect to upload your approach for grading online when the website still was operating. If you are able to look at the .spd file provided with the mission it might provide some clues on how to collect performance metrics during the approach and then send them to an external script via SimConnect for collection and further analysis (APARTS output).

Thoughts?

[SpazSinbad]

This PDF here has some great info about LSO grading parameters (whether it is actual used today - who knows):

OUTER-LOOP CONTROL FACTORS FOR CARRIER AIRCRAFT Robert K. Heffley 1 December 1990

http://robertheffleyengineering.com/docs/CV_environ/RHE_NAV_90_TR_1.pdf

[GOONIE]

Thanks Spazsinbad!

The docs contain a lot of detailed criteria for grading each aspect of the approach; however, I am still unclear how it is used to surmise the final grade or score for the trap.

[SpazSinbad]

You will have to educate yourself by reading these publications. Remember ordinary USN pilots selected/volunteering to become LSOs go to LSO school. Excerpts from both LSO PDFs attached below.

LSO NATOPS 01 May 2009:

http://www.wings-of-gold.com/cnatra/LSONATOPSMAY09.pdf (2Mb)

OK    _OK_ Perfect pass

OK     OK Reasonable deviations with good corrections

(OK) (OK) Fair. Reasonable deviations

— -- No-grade. Below average but safe pass

C Cut. Unsafe, gross deviations inside waveoff window

B Bolter

NC NC No count (used in grade column)

( ) ( ) Parentheses around any symbol signifies “a little” (e.g., (F) means “a little fast”)

_______ _Comment_ Underline. For emphasis

______________________________

LANDING SIGNAL OFFICER REFERENCE MANUAL (Rev B):

http://63.192.133.13/VMF-312/LSO.pdf (5.6Mb)

[GOONIE]

Thanks Spaz, I understand the real world LSO grades, what I am trying to understand is how we would generate an automated LSO grade or score (not real world) using an automated Greenie Board that this thread is trying to discuss.

First you need the parameters for the approach, which the NATOPS docs provide, and collect performance against these parameters during the approach via an automated system (simconnect). Then you need to sum up all the deviations/performance values throughout the approach (X, IM, IC, AR) to get a final automated LSO grade (OK, (OK), --, C, B). Does that make sense?

Both an OK and (OK) say "reasonable deviations" which sounds pretty subjective if we are going to automate scoring each pass, not saying it is impossible, just saying it needs to be discussed. Thoughts?

Here is an example for an automated LSO grade, if you received (LUL) at X, IM, IC, AR, would you receive a OK, or (OK)? I guess we would need to monitor corrections and determine what is considered a "good correction" to receive a OK vs a (OK). FSXNavyPilot, do you have any ideas on how to judge good correction? Would it be a trend analysis or can you monitor corrections at each point during the approach? For example if you are LUL at the start and LUL in the middle, you would assume a good correction was not made and thus an (OK) is possible.