Author Topic: Greenie Board Possibilities?  (Read 145603 times)

Orion

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Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2011, 09:58:01 pm »
In case anyone was wondering what I was referring to in my posts from the beginning of the thread before I edited them...



And yes, it does connect to FSX and receive messages from missions.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 10:01:19 pm by Orion »

neutrino

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Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2011, 10:11:06 pm »
Yep, it totally works  ;D

« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 10:15:16 pm by neutrino »

SpazSinbad

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Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2011, 10:57:08 pm »
Probably an LSO would need to say more about how grading is performed. A real LSO logbook can be downloaded in PDF format for you to get an idea of how passes are scored. That would be my only suggestion. Otherwise to rank all the possibilities etc during an approach is probably beyond a non-LSO. I was not trained as an LSO. It seems you are on the right path though. Yes the system is subjective. The VF-805 LSO logbook PDF is here:

http://www.a4ghistory.com/VF-805-LSO-log-Early1980pp66.pdf  (38Mb)

"LSO (Landing Signal Officer) logbook in PDF format (38Mb) as used by the VF-805 LSOs in early 1980 during the second last cruise to Hawaii and RIMPAC80. Extra contextual information is included in 'squadron linebook style'."

There is also FCLP passes recorded at the back of the logbook to also give an overview of how to score. Be advised one chap in this section 'Binskin' went on to be the current Chief of the Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] (CAF) now Air Vice Marshal Mark Binskin.

Also at the time the Squadron VF-805 was embarked LEUT (USN - on exchange) Bob Stumpf is recorded. Bob went on to become one of the Leaders of the Hornet Blue Angels.

One of the LSOs named in the book went on to become an Air Commodore in the RAAF. Why did Navy pilots join the RAAF? Because the RAN Fixed Wing and Carrier Aviation stopped in the early 1980s, with only helos flying today.

On page 52 of the 66 page PDF you will see at the bottom of the page a PERFECT PASS by the first jet era LSO (1968-9) in the RAN now at that time the Senior Pilot (XO) of VF-805.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 11:11:38 pm by SpazSinbad »
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SpazSinbad

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« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 02:27:55 am by SpazSinbad »
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Razgriz

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Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2011, 04:04:31 am »
LSOing is something a human is needed to Judge accurately.  If we're going by a computer.  A deviation is detected, and 2 seconds later it searches for another.  Every 2s (2 second interval) it checks for deviations.  Number of deviations determines the grade (0 - _OK_ -> Not sure if reserved for emergency, 1 OK, 2-3 (OK), 4 NG).

Paddles

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Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2011, 05:58:48 am »
Well, guys...
I am currently arranging the areas, very well described in the RHE_NAV_90_TR_1.pdf (thanks to Spaz). Passing through any of these areas will generate specific messages for a SimConnect program, which will collect these data and try to grade pilot's performance. I also plan to collect at these areas some other crucial info such as AOA, descent rate, flaps state etc. All these data will be used to form APARTS-like sheet, very informative for trend analysis. Finally, the grades from this sheet will be uploaded to a server, maintaining the Greenie Board.

And of course, an _OK_ could be scored only if the plane flew all the way along the GS with deviations less than 0.3 vertical and 1.5 horizontal.

BTW, the TGS missions have similar, but more simplified, approach - there are less areas with more wider margins. I guess, they thought 'Hey, who cares... It's just a game!..'  ;)

And finally, creating a program with AI (of any kind) is not a trivial business. But we will try... Why not?  ;D
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GOONIE

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Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2011, 03:32:00 pm »
Nice FSnavypilot! Your slogan "want it done right? do it yourself" is perfect! 8) Your description of how to make this work sounds spot on, and it sounds like you are making head way.

Raz, I agree the human element of judging an approach is critical, but I think we can simulate this as FSNavypilot describes and get pretty close for the FSX simulation experience when a human is not available (not in MP).

Spaz, where did you find those videos??? talk about pucker factor, I am sure the seat cushions disappeared in both cases, almost went swimming. I love the second video and LSO dialogue, "EJECT! EJECT!, negative... rotate. ....who the hell yelled eject!"  :o

Orion, thx for sharing, not sure why you didn't share this earlier  ???
I gave it a whirl,



based on these scores, I found out what the problem is....  ;D


« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 03:39:06 pm by capthaltli »
"You've got to land here, son. This is where the food is."

SpazSinbad

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Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2011, 07:09:35 pm »
I'll have to update the 'how to deck land' PDF (which is just the now voluminous section from the 4.4GB PDF scrapbook about the RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk and other aircraft). This section has a lot of information already posted in this forum on other threads but also should be interesting with information on the F-35 variants and other new stuff as well as old stuff and the RN FAA innovations over the years (SRVL).

EDIT: Updated PDF - also smaller for easier download

http://www.a4ghistory.com/_HowDeckLand24mar2011pp1711.pdf (1.5GB)

"UPDATE 24 March 2011: New 1.5GB PDF (extracted from the main 4.4GB PDF) about ‘How to Deck Land’ with reference not only to the A4G Skyhawk but to other USN and RN aircraft of that era. In the mid-1960s groups of new RAN FAA pilots were trained in the USofA, instead of with the RAAF in Australia (basic flight training to Wings standard). This meant that these USN trained pilots became carrier qualified in the T-28C Trojan, so this aircraft is included also. More info about FCLP and ‘carrier deck’ at OLF/NOLF airfields is included as well as extra videos showing from the pilot perspective how to deck land & FCLP the T-45C Goshawk. Please see the main 4.4GB PDF for supporting information.

Please use a download manager or 'right mouse click' on the download URL below to "Save target as" to your computer. As indicated further down the page all these PDFs must be viewed on 'Windows XP SP2 or above computers' [Windows 7 is best] using the latest Adobe Reader 9.4.3 or better (when available). MAC users will have varying results with these PDFs I'm told (but I don't have a MAC because they are ...)."

Today I'll start making a new version of the above which will include the new material gathered since this one was made (quite a bit actually) especially with new historical material added.... The cartoon below has been in the PDF since the beginning - now some five or more years ago. Work on it never stops.

[EDIT] I might add that a lot of the 'how to deck land' material was generated by answering/researching to answer questions on this forum, with some 'advertisements' so to speak for Flight Simming/SLUDGE etc.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 02:08:38 pm by SpazSinbad »
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Razgriz

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Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2011, 08:51:14 pm »
Quote
13. The XO dared me to get a 1-wire.

 ;D ;D

SpazSinbad

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Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2011, 09:51:22 pm »
Long CUT & PASTE but informative I hope:

http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/showthread.php/139558-Looking-for-gouge-Ask-your-Stupid-Questions-about-Naval-Aviation-here-(Part-1)?p=385759&highlight=Grade%20Bolter%20Waveoff

"Here's a stupid question for Paddles. Could one of y'all put up a "grading passes 101"? The shorthand LSO's use - is it Fleet-Q: standardized? Taught at LSO School? Or just whatever the CAG Paddles prefers? What's considered start/at the middle/in-close? Etc and so on
______________

A: 2. Suppose to be standardized ... but it "changes" slightly over the decades ... most of the phraseology used to be in the LSO NATOPS -- I don't have one anymore ... there was always some consideration for "creative" phraseology, but it was frowned upon as only YOU or your platform mates might know what it meant ...

3. We did not have a dedicated LSO school when I got my qual; that came later. My peers and I did it at the end of the runway and at the ship like those who came before us ... hundreds of hours ... thousands of passes observed and controlled. Assuming you were any good and had "talent" (or a good "eye" and "feel" for it) you were usually only as good as those who taught you. My LSO mentors were fortunately VERY good ... starting with the ORISKANY'S legendary Ron "No-Nights" Coalson and moving on up from there. Nose will stick his nose in here with more skool information, I am certain ...

4. There's actually more; a LOT more in fact ... i.e., abeam, at the 90 (or anywhere else in the turn if it's appropriate) ... start (X) ... in the middle (IM) .... in close (IC) .... at the ramp (AR) ... and even "to land" (TL i.e., passing the platform) ... and "in the wires" (IW) which wasn't used too much and was usually thought of as "old school" ...
___________________________

Only a little bit has changed, it is still the "artform" that he was taught. We have computerized so grades are now stored in a database which makes things like "Top 10" and Trend Analysis much easier. It also means that a couple of the comments have changed. Not many symbols any more. "Rough" as in rough wings, rough nose, etc, is now "RUF" It used to be a squiggly horizontal line. Fly-through-up and fly-through-down, which used to be hand drawn (usually improperly) are now "/" and "\" respectively.

1. Grading Passes and 2. Shorthand and 4. What is the start, in close...
101 Remember the main reason we grade passes is so a pilot can learn from every pass and the Pilot and LSO can spot trends which need correction. My philosophy as a CAG LSO was not "lets see how much detail we can go into" it was more "hit the high points and tell him what he saw."

Tell him what he saw. Not what you saw. Important distinction. If you saw him low, but he saw a centered ball because he was slow and cocked up, then you would say slocu "slow cocked up". Then in the debrief when he doesn't see the low you saw, you can explain the airspeed deviation maksked the glideslope deviation.

We can start grading anywhere we want. In my airwing, we gave upgrades for the SHB - shit hot break, but only if you could handle it. Common calls in the RAG and TRACOM are TWA or TCA - too wide/close abeam. WUX, AA Wrapped up start, angling approach. All valid comments. ("If you ever hear a student say "Don't call the ball until you are wings level, because Paddles can't start grading until the ball call." Please punch them.)

So, basics: We look at three things. Glideslope, Lineup, Speed. There are lots of comments you can use:

Glideslope - H - High LO - Low. HCD - High coming down. B - Flat. (Flat is ALWAYS a glideslope reference, not aircraft attitude) S- Settle
\ - fly down through the glideslope / - Fly up through the glideslope

Lineup - LUR/LUL Lined up left/right R-L -Right to left.

Speed - F - Fast Slo - Slow CU - Cocked up ND - Nose down ACC - Accelerate DEC - Decelerate

We can also talk about the magnitude of a deviation. If it is (in parentheses) it is "a little" if it is underlined that means "a lot".

We grade any part of what we see, from the break to the flyaway on a B (Bolter) or WO (waveoff). For tracking and debriefing purposes, we break the groove up into distinct (but subjective) parts. X - start (usually about the time you go wings level). IM - In the middle. IC - In close. AR - At the ramp. IW - In the wires.

Then we take the deviation comments, put them in a location and build a pass. (We will talk about grading in a minute)

(OK) HX (TMP.CDIC) FBAR 4
Fair pass. High Start, a little too much power on the come down in close, fast flat at the ramp. 4 wire.

-- NEP.DRIM OCSDEC.LUIC LOBAR 3
NO GRADE Not enough power on drift right in the middle. Overcontrolled big settle decel on lineup inclose. Low, very flat at the ramp. 3 wire.

OK (NEPIC) (SAR) 2
OKAY PASS. A little not enough power in close, a little settle at the ramp. 2 wire.

Grades and grading philosophy:

Our (me and the other CAG LSO) philosophy was that in our airwing, it would be harder then in most to get an OK. We did not give sugar calls and expected pilots to get aboard without help. We tried to make it so that the only time you got a radio call was if we thought you were losing control of the pass. Not unheard of on our platform to get a "no grade" and not have anything said. Our mantra was "If he is going to clear the ramp, land near centerline with no drift, and not break the jet (For A4s, that is a new concern in the Hornet age ) then we normally won't talk to them.

Grades (and points assigned on 4.0 scale)

OK 5 "Okay Underlined" No deviations. (Never happens) Usually assigned for single engines, 1000th trap, very tough enviornmentals, etc.

OK 4 "Okay pass" Above Average Pass. Minor deviations with timely and proper corrections.

(OK) 3 "Fair Pass" Pass with average deviations and corrections.

B 2.5 Bolter. Basically a fair pass where you didn't get aboard. Boarding rate hit for pilot and squadron. Contrary to popular belief, a bolter is a safe, acceptable pass. (as long as you don't make a habit of it!)

-- 2.0 No Grade. (AKA "Stitch" or "Gash") Below average (but safe) pass. Excessive deviations and/or improper or untimely corrections and/or improper response to LSO call.

WOP 2.0 Pattern Waveoff. Usually issued for gross deviations in the approach turn. Excessive low or overshoot.

WO 1.0 Waveoff. Issued to prevent an unsafe pass from continuing. Caused by escessive deviations, compound deviations, or lack of response to LSO calls.

C 0.0 Cut pass. Unsafe. Probably a mishap.

WOFD * Foul deck waveoff. No grade awarded, doesn't count as a pass. (like a walk in Baseball) No boarding rate hit. (Exception- If you caused the WOFD by not having enough interval, then I would grade it as a WOP)

There are a few others:

OWO (Own Waveoff). Unless done at the start, not safe. Will definitely get a talking to from CAG Paddles and possibly Boss/CAG/CAPT.

WOW Waveoff Winds. Winds out of limits. Treated like WOFD.

3. Taught at LSO school: Not really. Like A4s said, it is an art. The only way you get good at it is to do it. Over and over and over and over.

LSO school is to waving what a simulator and Instrument ground school are to flying: You learn necessary info and procedures, but you don't learn to wave.

We spend a lot of time at LSO school going over stuff you don't normally cover on the platfrom during a recovery. ARBs (Aircraft Recovery Bulletins.) How the Gear works. How PALs works. LSO Administration. Safety considerations. Glideslope geometry (This one used to be a ball buster. We did actual trig calculations!) LSO Post Mishap Procedures. Pre-Op checks. Field equipment set-up, etc. And, since we were a "center of excellence" and were responsible for teaching the teachers, we did classes on giving classes.

There were four classes at school.

IFGT - 2 weeks. Initial Formal Ground Training. For first tour LSOs. We requested that an LSO have 1 cruise worth of experience prior to attending.

FRS/TRACOM - 1 week. Refresher geared towards LSOs on their way to FRS/TRACOM LSO billet.

AFGT - 1 week. Advanced Formal Ground Training. For LSOs on their way to CAG Paddles jobs.

Air Department class - Class for prospective Air Bosses and/or Boss+Mini+Shooters. This was a class we started when I was there, don't know if they still do it. Focus on ARBs. Lots of drills. Lots of communication. Talk about Boss role vs. Arresting Gear Officer role vs. LSO role.

We also did a seminar for any PDCAG during their training track."
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Paddles

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Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2011, 07:42:15 am »
Very useful post, thanks Spaz!

I think it's time to get into more details. Most of the areas I planned to arrange are in place already and here you can see the layout (don't be confused of that red wireframes mess).



I used approach figures from the latest LSO NATOPS available (of may 2009) and calculated (millimeter-wise) GS areas geometry for Javier's CV68, which is known to have the glideslope angle 3.99 and the deck angle 8.496. The GS distances, shown on the picture,  are measured from the ramp.

There are 7 areas for lineup deviations (_LUL_, LUL (LUL), OK, (LUR), LUR, _LUR_) and 7 areas for glideslope deviations (_H_, H, (H), OK, (L), L and _L_) at each part of the approach. So, it will be possible to reliably define aircraft's position/deviation.  I also plan to monitor AoA, sink rate and other aircraft parameters such as flaps, gear and hook positions...

And here is my question.  ;)

What do mean \ - fly down through the glideslope and / - fly up through the glideslope?  Or when these errors are recorded? I mean that during its approach the aircraft constantly flies up and down through the glideslope, as the pilot constantly makes corrections. So what are the criteria?

Thanks. And more questions to come...  ;D
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SpazSinbad

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Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2011, 10:25:53 am »
fsxnp, WOW - looks like you have an excellent idea of how to go about the task.

Not sure about your question:

"What do mean \ - fly down through the glideslope and / - fly up through the glideslope?"

I'll do some thinking and investigation. I gather this criteria is in the latest LSO NATOPS May 2009. Every other day I search the internet for the latest 2010 LSO Reference Manual PDF - no luck.  ;D
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SpazSinbad

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Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2011, 10:46:31 am »
Fuzzy Logic PDF may be inspirational - or just plain FUZZY:

http://www.stottlerhenke.com/papers/WCCI_2002_Richards.pdf
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SpazSinbad

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Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2011, 10:55:10 am »
Found the 'fly up' & 'fly down' through glideslope references here online:

http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation2/P-1211/P-12110028.htm

FROM this CNATRA T-45C pub: http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation2/P-1211/index.htm

Is this the standard? I hope it is seen that comments differ over time whilst there is some flexibility as well.
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Paddles

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Re: Greenie Board Possibilities?
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2011, 11:27:25 am »
Spaz,
Good reading about fuzzy logic, it IS inspirational, not fuzzy  ;D thanks!

Down to my question. Just an example. Say, I start a little low and make correction. Sure I will cross (fly through) the GS and will be a little high. Then I'll try to compensate and go down again... These small oscillations are inevitable during the approach. So, when or why these oscillations are considered as / and \ ?
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