Author Topic: Help with weapons pack uprising  (Read 16500 times)

lvflyer

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Help with weapons pack uprising
« on: February 11, 2011, 02:42:29 am »
Gentlemen and ladies,

I know nothing can be done legally about what is going on, but we can sure show that we can't be put in a box.

I am starting a revolt and I encourage all that can to spread this and make it viral. Captainsim and VRS are stealing ideas and I bet some code that have been in development and released as freeware for the last year. It is not fair for a company to take advantage of our community's contributors time and talent to discover the hidden secrets of FSX and then create a product that practically guarantees that you will have to buy their product in order to use. I am talking about the "Weapons For FSX" and "Tack Pac". The concept of weaponizing FSX with AI SAMs, missiles, droppable objects, guns, and Air to Air weapons have been in development in our community by many dedicated to freeware contribution. This can be seen at http://fsdub.informe.com/portal.html and other posts in the community. Screenshots and videos have been released on Youtube every step of the way and at http://www.dahome.net/fsxpics.htm  Now the greed has begun and the big companies can see an advantage to take what has been in development and wrap it up in a security wrapper and force everyone to pay them in order to use. Captainsim at least is releasing an SDK for development, but anything created will have to use their dll which will cost everyone. Stealing of ideas and concepts from hobby contributors like Sludge JOrdan Moore, and Karol Chlebowski and many others has been happening for years and has damaged our hobby, but we always seem to recover and put the greed out of business, like Alphasim sort of. I encourage all that can to join with me and encourage the development and release of the already being developed stand-alone freeware dll and SDK so it can grow in the spirt of what this hobby is all about, sharing and contribution for mutual enjoyment. We have made major moves in the multi-player environment in the last year so lets join to destroy the GREED. Spread this far and wide and if anyone is familiar with simconnect, gauge development and mission creation using effects and want to join up let me know.  We are dedicated to freeware.  One more thing if these commercial interests, CS, VRS, and MilViz have their way then we will hav eto own all three base packages to see the effects of others in multiplayer.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 09:40:14 am by virtuali »

virtuali

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Re: Help with weapons pack uprising
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2011, 10:36:22 am »
Although we'll allow your message here, I must say we don't share your view of freeware against payware, nor your definition of payware being an expression of "greed".

The difference between payware and freeware is just than some people chose flight simulation as an hobby, others chose it to be a profession, that doesn't automatically mean the latter are driven by greed. I don't know how old are you but, if you have a day to day job, I guess you wouldn't feel greedy asking a payment. That doesn't mean other couldn't enjoy doing it as an hobby, sometimes with very good results.

About "stealing ideas". Sorry, but unless they actually stole actual parts of your code or art, there's no such thing as stealing ideas. Software is protected by copyright only, and copyright doesn't cover ideas or concepts, but only their actual expression.

Patents (if one applies for them), can protect an idea, but in every debate related to software patents, the stronger opposition always come from the Freeware or Open Source communities, for obvious reasons, since if software patents were used extensively, companies like Microsoft or Adobe would surely patent ideas like word processors or spreadsheets or graphic editors, and free products like Open Office or Gimp couldn't exists.

So, unless they really copied actual part of your stuff, you have simply to accept it as a normal competition, the same we (as a commercial developer) have to face every day, coming either from other competing developers or even freeware.

This sentence is particularly disturbing:

Quote
Now the greed has begun and the big companies can see an advantage to take what has been in development and wrap it up in a security wrapper and force everyone to pay them in order to use

It sounds a bit like a veiled hint at piracy, as if they wouldn't use a security wrapper, it might have been somewhat ok, since everyone that didn't feel paying for it, could simply download it from pirate sites. Choice of words is important here: the word "greed" seems to pop up very often on web sites and discussion boards, usually related to RIAA/MPAA sueing someone for having downloaded Mp3's.

Flight sim addon market doesn't have anything to do with major record/movies labels: there's no big money involved, and very few commercial addon developers are able to sustain themselves and their employees doing only that. We might be one of the very few, but just barely, and if you count the workload involved creating an addon, the hourly wage of a flight sim addon developer is not much higher than a kid working at McDonald's...so no, greed doesn't have much to do with commercial flight sim development, not at least for developers that take their time to create an addon and, more importantly, support it after its release as well.

We have toyed with the idea of making a weapons addon in FSX since *before* FSX was released. Having access to Simconnect when it was still in beta version, everybody could see it might be used for something like that. But that was only the foundation, adding weapons (doing it in the right way) is a lot of work beside Simconnect, and we don't believe it would been very easy to recover the development costs, so we stopped thinking about it. If other developers believe they could, we wish them good luck, since it would be an interesting product to see nonetheless.

A suggestion: if you really want to fight these commercial products, and make your freeware project stand out, there's an easy way to do it: release an SDK and make it OPEN SOURCE using a very liberal license, like the Creative Commons one. This way, a commercial developer not wanting to pay license fees to the commercial solutions, could use the freeware one instead, make it a "de facto" standard. And this wouldn't prevent freeware projects using it.

SUBS17

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Re: Help with weapons pack uprising
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2011, 11:47:55 am »
Tacpac and the Captain sim weapons pack have been in development for a few years all because people have requested it on the forums. VRS is only a small company of a few people and their Tacpac is not a rip off its value for money and from what I've seen on you tube the other one by Captsim looks quite similar. One thing to take note of is this allows full combat in FSX in MP which is a big deal. BTW Tacpac also includes A/G radar which is also a big deal as far as aircraft like the Superhornet are concerned very close to a fully modeled sim. Its quite dumb to complain when devs are actually listening and creating these mods. Tacpac also includes refuelling tanker and other stuff my one big concern is there is no standardisation with these mods ideally you want just one payware mod to fulfill the weapons mod for SP and MP and then build off that using SDKs then in FSX MP everyones flying on the same mod and can see each others weapons effect. What they should do now is decide which mod to stick with in then agree on working together to keep FSX heading in one direction.

fael097

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Re: Help with weapons pack uprising
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2011, 01:29:58 pm »
@lvflyer:
so you mean these people are "stealing" ideas, right?
lol, a modern air combat simulation with a reality level like mfs is wanted probably since they made MFS. or are you saying that before the freeware dudes, nobody ever thought of doing that? what world are you from?

lvflyer

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Re: Help with weapons pack uprising
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2011, 04:58:20 pm »
If you would spend the time and do the research at the links above and look at this video
and all the others by the same author you will see each step in the evolution of the freeware weapons for FSX.  Greed may be strong word, but this is not the first time that code and ideas that were released as freeware ended up in commercial software with the intent to make sure that newbies think they have to pay to play.  Lots of times the freeware files are shared in obscure forums or other download sites and sometimes even reserved for members of groups only then slowly get released to all, for example all the sludge updates.  These have been developed out of necessity for military groups because it was frustrating to see a bomb explode 3000 feet above the ground and float to its traget or be limited to bombing from a certain altiude only.  I myself with the help of others worked on the development of precision high altitude bombing of ground targets with explosions that took effect when they hit the ground and left a black mark.  The next step in the eveolution is modeling damage to structures.  The idea of the revolt is to get the minds together quickly so we can work together to release the full effects and controls so that we don't get trapped into having to pay for base packages from all three concerns.

The SDK for these projects are available at the links above.  In addition to Air to Ground precision bombing, there is ongoing development of refueling gauges and tankers that can be called up anytime at the same link.  Air to Air with HUD lockup is also in develpment and ordnance load out selection with corresponding weight and flight characteristics are being created.  Also automated target seeking SAM sites are being developed along with true to life acting RADAR to get away from the GOD mode that we currently use.  This radar will actually be allowed to be jammed along with the SAMs and stealth aircraft would not be easily picked up by this radar.

Believe me that if we can get the right freeware developers together we can have it all without paying anyone.  We are headed down a slippery slope and this article by Jordan Moore tells the history of this hobby and illustrates what happens when companies try to make a buck off it, it isn't pretty  http://www.hovercontrol.com/artman/publish/article_138.shtml  I fear we are started on the not so good cycle that will damage the growth of the community again just when we were starting to get the spirit of cummunity back. 

fael097

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Re: Help with weapons pack uprising
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2011, 06:32:12 pm »
a weapons pack is only worthy when its fully and seamlessly integrated into an aircraft. anything other than that is freeware quality, and thats what you get with CS weapons, not with TACPACK.
idk if you're aware, but tacpack fully integrates with the superbug's radar and sms, not only the hud. you select a target from the radar, you select a weapon from the Storage page on the DDI. its not a generic panel that automatically selects the target that is in front of you, and you dont simply press a button to switch your weapons. it also actually launches the missiles that are modeled under its wings, not just makes a missile appear under the plane and fly into the target. missiles under wings have actual weight and drag, and affect the plane's behaviour after you launch them. this is a level of quality you'll never find in any freeware add on, because no one that is able, and have the time to develop such things, would be mad enough not to charge for it. its simply impossible.

I suggest you to research more about VRS tacpack and their bug, and even fly it if you can. thats quality, both graphically and phisycally accurate plane, its not just about the 3d models (captain sim planes) and not just about the realism (pmdg, etc)

this freeware add on you talk about is certainly better than CS weapons pack. but dont you just come in and say stuff about something you never tested, or have any clue what's about, like tacpack. also, how am i supposed to know about that freeware add on you are talking about, i never seen anyone talking about it, or an advertisement, nothing. you're the first one. and i still didnt find a download link, yet you say its already available. i'm certainly interested in testing it, other than just seeing videos
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 06:37:44 pm by fael097 »

lvflyer

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Re: Help with weapons pack uprising
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2011, 07:05:00 pm »
Look in the post above for the link to the development hub.  Join and post your question.  Like I said this is beta and has been in development.  If we can get some talent together we can create an installer for specific aircraft and at the same time provide some of the options for any aircraft.  I do have Superbug and I have researched Tac Pack and it will be  a limited release and the effects will not be seen in multiplayer unless you pay VRS for that privilege just like CS and MilViz.  That is the problem.  There may be players that don't want to buy the VRS Superbug or the Tac Pack and still be able to see the explosions and that will not be available, just like if you don't own the superbug you can't see the right textures if one is flying the superbug.  In fact with some you see a can of spam.  It forces people in organizations to purchase software they don't intend to fly.  That is what the freeware community is all about.  Equal option to participate along side those that have the money they can burn and still have a decent experience.  They are killing that freedom.  If you are a developer the SDK and code for all the new creations are available.  Just look at the posts at the link I provided.  If you want some basic add on bomb effects and you want the bombgauge you can get that at www.dahome.net/fsxfiles.htm

fael097

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Re: Help with weapons pack uprising
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2011, 07:56:23 pm »
i dont want basic add on bomb effects, i want a weapons pack that is better than CS weapon, and freeware, as you claim. and still i dont have that.

how can you say "greed" when these people develope these things for a living? if others are rich enough, and have free time enough to develope fsx stuff for free, good for them, but some dont, thats why they make quality stuff.

what you say is almost like saying, "hey virtuali, there are people who make airport scenery for free, you greedy bastard!" and that's absurd.

SUBS17

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Re: Help with weapons pack uprising
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2011, 05:40:21 am »
Look in the post above for the link to the development hub.  Join and post your question.  Like I said this is beta and has been in development.  If we can get some talent together we can create an installer for specific aircraft and at the same time provide some of the options for any aircraft.  I do have Superbug and I have researched Tac Pack and it will be  a limited release and the effects will not be seen in multiplayer unless you pay VRS for that privilege just like CS and MilViz.  That is the problem.  There may be players that don't want to buy the VRS Superbug or the Tac Pack and still be able to see the explosions and that will not be available, just like if you don't own the superbug you can't see the right textures if one is flying the superbug.  In fact with some you see a can of spam.  It forces people in organizations to purchase software they don't intend to fly.  That is what the freeware community is all about.  Equal option to participate along side those that have the money they can burn and still have a decent experience.  They are killing that freedom.  If you are a developer the SDK and code for all the new creations are available.  Just look at the posts at the link I provided.  If you want some basic add on bomb effects and you want the bombgauge you can get that at www.dahome.net/fsxfiles.htm

FYI the Tacpac will have an SDK at some stage and that will be able to be used on other addon aircraft such as the Acceleraion Hornet and other aircraft addons for FSX.

lvflyer

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Re: Help with weapons pack uprising
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2011, 09:33:33 am »
Yes but others in multiplayer will not see the effects without paying for the package and a lot of the military joint operations simulation is the fact that you can see the explosions even though you didn't cause them.  The other issue is that anything that is created by using the SDK will need the base pack to work.  The ony acceptable compromise will be for these companies to release the portion of the package that will allow seeing the effects by all and then only charge for those that want to control them.  That way if a person uses CS Weapons for FSX or VRS or MilViz the others will be able to see them without owning all three packages, which probably won't work together anyway.

JamesChams

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Re: Help with weapons pack uprising
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2011, 11:01:25 am »
...  The ony acceptable compromise will be for these companies to release the portion of the package that will allow seeing the effects by all and then only charge for those that want to control them.  That way if a person uses CS Weapons for FSX or VRS or MilViz the others will be able to see them without owning all three packages, which probably won't work together anyway.
Mr. "lvflyer,"
I see your point... However, I must say as a paying customer, "FREE" gift winner ;D, and the user of some awesome FREEWARE's (namely Mr. Javier's Nimitz package & a few others, like Dino’s aircraft ;)) that this is not really a bad idea; having them made by good payware companies.  

Well, let consider the following…

  • For those of us who want "TOP NOTCH Quality" at a reasonable price, buying all three packages should amount to about roughly $60-$90 USD (at max ~$100 USD), at roughly $20+ USD/package.  And, that is still cheaper than buying just one good payware tube-liner, like any of PMDG's excellent work.
  • Next, you pay for what you get and I'm sure you'd agree that not all freeware works correctly and is constantly maintained/patched or supported beyond a few minor update cycles.  CaptainSim, VRS, & MilViz are professional companies that guarantee support of their work with constant fixes/updates and reporting workaround posts.  While this might happen with some freeware design groups, I'm sure that you would agree that it could cease at some point due to lack of interest or just when developers get caught-up with life's chores/troubles (e.g. system dies, have babies, or plain get sick of developing), which have all happened to us at one time or another.
  • Thirdly, not all users will want to invest time into sophisticated packages for each aircraft.  Some may simply want a simple arcade-style add-in.  Here’s where CaptainSim has really taken the lead in developing a simple easy to use package.  Unlike VRS’ or MilViz’s products which will most likely be strickly for the “advanced” simmers.  They will also require hardcore knowledge of the avionics packages in the jets and require much reading/playing for comfortable use – something I’m really looking forward to. :D
  • Fourth, CaptainSim has really shined with the addition of AI targets for different eras and types of combat engagement.  Something unique that may or may not be done by VRS or MilViz; who, for the time being, are implementing advanced avionics/weapons systems for modern jets.  This also opens up the possibilities of Scenery developers building Weapons ranges, and classic war/battle situations, and (my favorite hope) more Military bases.  This is something that I’ve even asked Virtuali/FSDT to do and so far only combo civilian/military airports like PHNL/Hickman and a few from Aerosoft have emerged as payware quality.  I see that this area has great potential for all kinds of developers/development projects.
  • Fifth, this is a logical next step for most of these companies who are seeing the decline in user-interest with the same types of products over and over again.  This is something new for FS, has tremendous growth potential for FSX/Acceleration users who want to see more sophisticated capabilities in Military platforms in the Sim.  And, have "things" to do, including adding "Missions" into the FSX environment which up till now has been sadly not fully explored or exploited by developers - Something that made FSX, especially, a much better entertaining platform.
  • Finally, I believe that, at least in the beginning, that these packages integration might strictly be limited so that each company can build the products potential, fix bugs, and manage support for their respective product line.  However, this is where the FREEWARE community might shine - You all might be able to use the features of simConnect or FSUIPC to translate the data of weapons effects/explosions into the host MP and even SP environments and bypass the built-in limitations.  Allowing for users to just download your tool and see/feel the impact of explosions/warfare as an observer ONLY, while needing to purchase the product to be a active participant.  e.g. MS made Carriers for their payware Acceleration package, and then Mr. Javier & the FREEWARE community made the Nimitz class ones that rival everything that was done by MS.  Then, someone else, made a MP version and yet another (Orion & team) started making FSX Missions to enhance their experience of it.  Now, honestly, no one would choose to use the default carrier over Javier’s awesome work, right? ;) So, its been done before and you’ll can do it again here too.
In conclusion, I would firmly persuade you to see this as your *finest hour*, as I see that this now CaptainSim’s and soon to be both VRS' & Milviz's as well.  In the end they may “out-do” your capabilities, but perhaps you'll (Freeware Community) might build things that they haven't considered; like ground assault/submarine vehicles, Scenery elements, missions – the Sky is the limit.  I could add much more, in the way of ideas, to this post to reveal to you my thinking on the potential that is yet to be explored, especially in light of the closed platform of MS Flight and the extremely old/limited FS2004 sim.’s (which has had its day), but that I’ll leave to some other time to discuss, when these products capabilities/limitations are strictly being defined.  

For you, however, I hope you reconsider your impression of this and see the plus side of it to the entire community of simmers.  FS, especially FSX, is no longer as limited and restricted to original role of its conceivers, it has finally started to become a “real world” example of what Aviation and all facets of flight should be – realistic as well as capable of meeting/dealing with all type of accurate modeling.  That has and is still my *FSX Dream*, which are being realized daily – Praise God! :D
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 11:07:45 am by JamesChams »
"Walk with the wise and become wise; associate with fools and get in trouble.” (Prov.13:20 NIV)
Thank you very much.
Sincerely,
From,
  James F. Chams


lvflyer

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Re: Help with weapons pack uprising
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2011, 05:50:43 pm »
Just to give you an idea of what we have already accomplished.  In the beginning there was only a beta standalone server that we called the bomb server.  With the bomb server there is a client that is loaded onto each player's computer that is connected to the server through VPN, we mostly use Wippien.  Everyone would have the MK82 bomb effects loaded onto their computer as a droppable object.  The client listened for the shift+D keystroke and would manufacture a bomb out of any airframe that you were flying, even the trike, and would drop and explode on impact with the ground or object.  The server would instruct all the others that were running their client and were connected with the server to manufacture the same effect in the same location as originally created, including the image coming from the aircraft and impacting the ground.  Now the next phase was created in the form of a dll that now does not need to connect to the server, but can see any effect that is created by the client of another without the client being ran on the player with the dll installed.  So you see it has already been accomplished.  It is just a matter of a little bit of polish and a user interface and it will be complete for all to enjoy.   There is strength in numbers and the community as a whole have demonstrated that once an add on is created and the code is released to all that it can only get better with time.

JamesChams

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Re: Help with weapons pack uprising
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2011, 06:27:54 pm »
Just to give you an idea of what we have already accomplished.  ...
I looked at the youTube movies 0011 & 0012 (from your earlier post above) and was quite impressed with what you've accomplished.  Are you associated with the guy that did/worked on this FREEWARE: FSXWeapons?


I, too, along with another highly skilled XML programmer, did a few updates to the AS F-16 X entire gauge set to include many major enhancements.  you can learn about it here: U.E.P. But, that project is currently still in a *holding pattern.*  But you can see a brief demo I made during its earlier development; Enjoy!


Keep up the good work, I hope to see many wonderful new things in the year(s) to come. ;)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 06:39:15 pm by JamesChams »
"Walk with the wise and become wise; associate with fools and get in trouble.” (Prov.13:20 NIV)
Thank you very much.
Sincerely,
From,
  James F. Chams


lvflyer

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Re: Help with weapons pack uprising
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2011, 06:46:02 pm »
No I haven't spoken with the guy with the cockpit, but I sure would like to get him and Chris Dub and Karol Chlebowski together.  What a team.  As too your EHSI it is a great looking add on, however to military realism I don't think anything like that is available.  They tend to use TACAN readouts only and I still can't understand why since I am qualified in a G1000 glass panel.  Talk about situational awareness.  What we do need is a true terrain following radar that can turn the aircraft to avoid terrain as seen by a forward looking radar.  That seems to be a complex undertaking and the only thing that has been accomplished so far is radio altimeter holding.  In mountainous area that doesn't work too well.

JamesChams

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Re: Help with weapons pack uprising
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2011, 07:36:28 pm »
..., but I sure would like to get him and Chris Dub and Karol Chlebowski together.  What a team.  ...
That's the main problem with FREEWARE; people are fiercely competitive or isolationistic and things never really get *realized.*   But, with Payware, that rarely happens.  Other plus' included a self-motivated need for survival, something that we as humans have which keep us motivated even when things are tough or impossible.  

So, for now, at least, the payware will rule, it would seem. ;)
"Walk with the wise and become wise; associate with fools and get in trouble.” (Prov.13:20 NIV)
Thank you very much.
Sincerely,
From,
  James F. Chams