Author Topic: Idea for a "trainer-mission"  (Read 75629 times)

SpazSinbad

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Re: Idea for a "trainer-mission"
« Reply #90 on: October 19, 2010, 11:55:26 pm »
Razgriz, you may complain but you did not leave your original posts which did not say what you say now. At the time my installation was working OK (older effects files already in place).

However you do not seem to understand the point of FCLP. There is a link in the readme file that helps explain: http://www.navy.mil/search/print.asp?story_id=2096&VIRIN=1181&imagetype=1&page=1

If in further doubt about value of night FCLP I could explain further or point you to an (unavailable at moment) 2GB PDF online 'How to carrier land' that is not specific to Hornet but it gets a mention amongst all the other Naval Aviation guff in it at: www.a4ghistory.com

You are free to do all the non-FCLP flying you wish. However the missions and information is specifically about FCLP day/dusk/night with different parameters for day/night with dusk being a transition to night. It is difficult to do at night but if instruments are flown with a bit of visual to gauge abeam position (LSO will call 'abeam' for you) and some judicious instrument flying around base turn from 1,000 feet AGL not below 600 feet until lit [runway] carrier deck sighted, it is doable with sufficient practice in daytime/dusk.

In a nutshell: night FCLP concentrates pilot attention to 'meatball lineup and airspeed' without the potential to 'deck spot'. Most FCLP is done at night before day deck qualification. Then more night FCLP and day deck landings before night deck qualification (only in Hornets not in Goshawks).

Another benefit of night FCLP is that the FLOLS/IFLOLS is easier to see - and in FSX. FCLP should be fun. Practice mission 4 heaps before attempting mission 5 IMHO.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 11:58:41 pm by SpazSinbad »
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Razgriz

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Re: Idea for a "trainer-mission"
« Reply #91 on: October 20, 2010, 12:00:18 am »


You just can't see anything when your that dark at night, you NEED to have ILS, otherwise its unsafe and won't be done.

SpazSinbad

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Re: Idea for a "trainer-mission"
« Reply #92 on: October 20, 2010, 12:05:04 am »
Razgriz, that is your opinion with your FSX setup. However others may have different setups where they can see the carrier deck lights. Obviously they are there. If a good night FCLP pattern is flown then the carrier deck lights will be visible in good time halfway around the base turn (but not below 600 feet - probably not below 800 feet to give more chance of spotting the deck lights).

Probably you are not knowing what to expect. Do plenty of dusk mission 4 bounces to gauge what you will see in mission 5.

An old style carrier landing advice video/pdf (how to fly mirror) but still relevant techniques today is here:

http://www.filefront.com/17349862/DeckLandingInstructionVideos.pdf/ (90Mbs)

The www.a4ghistory.com site is down for the moment with complaints made to service provider - no response so far....
_________________

EDIT: My first reaction to Mission 5 (complete darkness) was 'expletive deleted' 'No way'.  ;D However if flown by the numbers (see night FCLP diagram in readme PDF) with sufficient practice in other missions beforehand - it is doable. If not possible to see carrier deck lights then mission 4 is a great substitute. The dusk takeoff with gradual darkness descending during the FCLP is a good way to be introduced to mission 5; or just a good substitute for mission 5.

Remember to fly the dusk mission 4 at night FCLP altitude of 1,000 feet AGL which requires a longer base turn point. There is 25 knots of wind straight down runway. If flying mission 5 then takeoff by the end of carrier deck lights with full burner and adopt a 15-20 degree noseup attitude, reduce power to max (minus burner) and do not turn downwind until at circuit height. Use 30 degree AoB. You'll be fine. ;D
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 12:22:11 am by SpazSinbad »
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Razgriz

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Re: Idea for a "trainer-mission"
« Reply #93 on: October 20, 2010, 12:29:02 am »
Flying by the numbers or not, its such a dynamic environment, land and sea.  ILS is REQUIRED.

SpazSinbad

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Re: Idea for a "trainer-mission"
« Reply #94 on: October 20, 2010, 12:29:36 am »
OLF Coupeville Official FCLP diagram shows longer circuit for night FCLP with 'no wind' base turn time from abeam call indicated. I would use about 10-15 seconds with the 25 knot wind - probably more like ten seconds and stay at height no lower than say 800 feet AMSL (600 feet above runway) during base turn to ensure that the carrier deck lights are sighted during base turn. Adjust accordingly and fly the ball during the turn when it can be seen.

Razgriz we posted at same time. You can fly or not fly how you wish. The mission is there... No one is forcing you to fly it.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 12:37:26 am by SpazSinbad »
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SpazSinbad

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Re: Idea for a "trainer-mission"
« Reply #95 on: October 20, 2010, 03:23:08 am »
A complete Mission 5 night FCLP 3min 19sec circuit (of sheer terror) from takeoff to landing "Mission5gotowhoaFRAPSavi.wmv" is here: 63Mbs

http://www.filefront.com/17410616/Mission5gotowhoaFRAPSavi.wmv

Not the best example (would not come down from space today but at least did not hit the ground). At 1:40 I look at the carrier lights abeam (see graphic now attached) - soon after the LSO calls abeam - and about eight seconds later I turn base. Next GIF screenshot shows approx. 'START'...

This next comment is for FSXNP: At about the middle you can see I'm a little high while the LSO calls waveoff. Perhaps if this 'too high' call is made further in 'or higher' criteria (he knows what I mean I hope) then that will be better. Thanks.

I'll explain at the last minute - after a lot of testing - a waveoff call was added if the aircraft was TOO HIGH 'in the middle' but I guess it always depends on HOW HIGH is too high. It seemed OK but then but now I think it is too restrictive.

In any event the LSO calls in these missions can only be advisory because there are a lot of other factors that cannot be taken into account. However with experience one can see that these calls are useful - if sometimes inaccurate (depending on circumstances). The last minute change was an effort to keep low flyers out of the weeds... (after starting high, high all the way - coming down at the ramp).

Really Mission 4 is a good workout with Mission 5 for ???? ;D

BTW I could make a smaller video with less detail (or edit) but I thought it worthwhile to show 'warts and all'. Video made from FRAPS (2GB) and crunched down in the latest Windows 7 Movie Maker (standard settings whatever they are). LSOs - go for it! ;D
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 03:48:22 am by SpazSinbad »
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SpazSinbad

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Re: Idea for a "trainer-mission"
« Reply #96 on: October 20, 2010, 04:51:54 am »
Same video above now on Utube but have not been able to see video/quality so far:



« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 04:53:38 am by SpazSinbad »
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SpazSinbad

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Re: Idea for a "trainer-mission"
« Reply #97 on: October 21, 2010, 02:37:54 am »
'NeptunusLex' took up the video with others LSO comments (translated) here:

http://www.neptunuslex.com/2010/10/20/flashbacks/comment-page-1/#comment-645875

"
– B-> PATTAFU _HFWUAA-X_ _PNU.HCDTL_ _FAW_
-: No Grade
B: Bolter
PATAFU: Pattern All Fouled Up
_HFWUAA-X_: High Fast Wrapped Up Angling Approach to Start (Underlined = extreme)
_PNU.HCDTL_: Pull Nose Up on High Come Down To Land (underline)
_FAW_: Fast All the Way

I mighta graded it:
C ->_LIG__HFAA-X_\.LSOCALL IM LOFBAR IC-AR"

{I would have to go to the LSO Manual to translate the last one just above}
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Razgriz

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Re: Idea for a "trainer-mission"
« Reply #98 on: October 21, 2010, 02:50:56 am »
Even he agrees about the ILS needles.  Regardless of experience or practice (not to mention your 'pattern'), ILS is REQUIRED for a night landing like that.  Also, I used to LSO grades like that, and will be doing that for the NATOPS mission group.

SpazSinbad

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Re: Idea for a "trainer-mission"
« Reply #99 on: October 21, 2010, 03:17:26 am »
Razgriz, I'm familiar with LSO grades and symbology but not off the top of my head these days. If someone has an opinion about ILS needles needed then they also do not know that the pattern can be flown without needing them. That is my point. IMHO the 'needles' are not required. If that is a challenge then that is the mission - if you agree to accept it.  ;D

I have said enough about the pattern and demonstrated (imperfectly I'll agree) that it is possible to fly Mission 5. Please work up to it via other missions as need be. If one can use Mission 5 then your flying will be all the better for it elsewhere. This is what FCLP is about - being better where it counts.

Before ILS needles in the USN and before FLOLS, only a good breakfast of carrots and 'meatball lineup and airspeed' was required for night work. Admittedly things are different today but then again there is the challenge of the mission. Fly Mission 4 instead.
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Letourn

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Re: Idea for a "trainer-mission"
« Reply #100 on: October 21, 2010, 06:19:21 am »
Hello All,

This is my first post an please excuse my English.
 I would like to thanks everyone who participate here i learn a lot from reading from all of you and a Big thanks to all the addons you are doing for the Acc Hornet.

Thanks 'fsxnavypilot' for those great missions.

Now i have a Question for either SpazSinbad or Razgriz, i been reading and i see there is a little difference of opinion. But i would like to know what would be the Night approach on an real carrier and how can i practice this in the mission #5 before trying it on the carrier.

Dont worry i will also practice the FCLP with mission #5 but i'd really like to know how to do it on a carrier. Unless 'fsxnavypilot' Alrady working on those missions ;)

Thanks

WilliamCall

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Re: Idea for a "trainer-mission"
« Reply #101 on: October 21, 2010, 06:37:24 am »
Serge,
     Downloaded and installed fclp_pack.  Missions 1 and 2 work fine.  Can't get missions 3,4,5 to load.  When loading the scenery FSX gets to 86% of scenery loaded, then it crashes.  It's almost as if I'm missing some scenery files or maybe I have a corrupted scenery file.  Any thoughts?  My OS is VISTA-32.

 Bill

Paddles

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Re: Idea for a "trainer-mission"
« Reply #102 on: October 21, 2010, 08:49:41 am »
WilliamCall,
Obviously there's something wrong with the scenery. I'd suggest you reinstall the KNRA scenery - first delete the KNRA scenery from within FSX, then remove KNRA_FCLP folder from FSX Addon Scenery folder. Then unzip the FCLP missions pack to a temporary folder and just copy KNRA_FCLP folder from it over to Addon Scenery and in FSX add the scenery back again. BTW, have you checked this http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3211.0;attach=9046?
Want it done right? Do it yourself!


SpazSinbad

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Re: Idea for a "trainer-mission"
« Reply #103 on: October 21, 2010, 09:31:26 am »
Letourn, you will have to ask fsxnp about practical matters of making a mission for FSX, all I did was test what was produced. AFAIK it was not possible to have an ILS for 'needles' (in the HUD) for NOLF Coupeville but no matter really from an FCLP viewpoint. On a carrier then 'needles' would be ideal but then again - it all depends.

However I will concede that having needles in the HUD (ILS) is a great convenience.

As far as I'm concerned FCLP is about flying the meatball - in the worst conditions - at night - so that the pilot is forced to fly 'meatball, line up and Opt AoA' without any other distractions being visible. If that premise is not accepted then don't bother with any FCLP. Go straight to the carrier and do your best. However I can reassure you if you master FCLP you will be much better at the carrier. That is how things work AFAIK. ;D

If you are not aware, USN pilots will fly (night with some beginner day) FCLP a lot before going to the carrier by day, and much later at night, after they have day qualified. In the USN nowadays this is first done in a T-45C by day only but most of their FCLP is done at night as I understand (as happened since the beginning of the jet era I suspect) for reasons outlined above. The technique used at night will be the same technique used for daytime carrier landings, which usually involve a circuit of the carrier much the same as FCLP.

Night Carrier Landings are quite different so please don't equate night FCLP with night carrier landings. Night FCLP is done to make the pilot a better deck lander all round - day or night - when he can see the ball. At night at the carrier it is not possible to do a night circuit so an instrument approach is done from altitude either controlled by radar or by pilot flying precision instruments. All will end up though having the pilot flying a visual approach from whatever distance he can see the ball; OR purely on instruments alone if he is able to do that (not done much in practice as I understand things today). Why is a visual approach done from being visual with the ball? Because it is more precise.

Complete automatic landings are available to arrest but seldom carried out unless an emergency or pilot is asked to do one. Usually the pilot opts for a visual approach when he can do it, to remain in practice at doing so. There is not much practice for the pilot in an automatic landing.

Razgriz has been insisting that 'needles' ILS are essential for night FCLP and I have been making the point that they are not essential for night FCLP. I have not been saying that needles are not essential for night carrier landings though. I hope that point is clear.

As you may see from my 'not very good' mission 5 video example my pattern and approach were not ideal but I have demonstrated that such a night FCLP circuit is possible. I promise I will practice more. ;D Depending on pilot skill it is always best to start with the basics and that means day FCLP then dusk then night. Attempting to fly night FCLP as setup in Mission 5 at Coupeville is not a good idea without going through the basic FCLP steps. But then again this is a desktop sim and no one is going to get hurt; but you may find the experience disappointing if you have no success.

Mission 4 is a lot of fun because it combines features of day/night and is a good transition to night FCLP and it is challenging. Flying an accurate pattern for FCLP is important especially turns at 30 degree AoB at Optimum Angle of Attack speed and don't go below recommended altitude if you cannot see the ball/carrier deck during your base turn. Remaining high allows more chance to see the carrier deck / ball if you are too far away for example. If too close then too bad, go around again and try again. No one is suggesting that night FCLP is easy. However remember if you can master night FCLP you will ace the carrier part.  ;D
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 09:37:22 am by SpazSinbad »
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WilliamCall

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Re: Idea for a "trainer-mission"
« Reply #104 on: October 21, 2010, 10:56:12 am »
WilliamCall,
Obviously there's something wrong with the scenery. I'd suggest you reinstall the KNRA scenery - first delete the KNRA scenery from within FSX, then remove KNRA_FCLP folder from FSX Addon Scenery folder. Then unzip the FCLP missions pack to a temporary folder and just copy KNRA_FCLP folder from it over to Addon Scenery and in FSX add the scenery back again. BTW, have you checked this http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3211.0;attach=9046?

Serge,
     Yes, I was aware of the oversite with regard to the effects folder.  I just deleted the KNRA_FCLP scenery from FSX, followed by removing the KNRA_FCLP folder from the FSX Addon Scenery folder.  Then did a complete reinstall of the KNRA_FCLP scenery.  I get the same result.  When I run mission 3, the scenery starts to load, then, at the 86% loaded mark, FSX crashes.  Maybe something is corrupted.  I'll download the .zip file from AVSIM and start all over and see what happens.

 Bill


Edit:  Well, I downloaded the .zip file and started all over, same result; missions 1 and 2 work fine; missions 3,4,5 cause FSX to crash while it's loading the scenery.  Any thoughts or suggestions?

 Bill
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 04:28:51 am by WilliamCall »