Catching 1 wire

[burner12]

IF you catch a 1 wire, what happens? Does the CO take you off flight status for almost crashing? Whenever I do I never count it as a landing so i go around again fora better try.

[ESzczesniak]

Catching the 1 wire is not a straight up grounding for "almost crashing".  It is the least desireable to catch since it is the nearest to a ramp strike--a likely fatal incident.  However, why put the 1 wire on the deck if it wasn't acceptable to catch it?  You loose style points, but that's about it (which is still a lot in the alpha dog world of fighter pilots).  What would get you grounded is getting a wave off from the LSO, then continuing your approach, being dangerously low over the ramp, touching down well before the 1 wire and catching that. 

The difference between the hook touching the deck just before the 1 wire and just after the 4 wire is mere inches at the ramp and even a good pilot is going to find himself a bit on the lowside now and then when your dealing with tolerances that low.

[neutrino]

Actually on USS Ronald Reagan (CVN-76) and USS George Bush (CVN-77) there is no 1st wire, so the OK3 is actually OK2  I guess Javier will have to remove the 1st wire from any future updates of the Nimitz class carrier  

[burner12]

Actually on USS Ronald Reagan (CVN-76) and USS George Bush (CVN-77) there is no 1st wire, so the OK3 is actually OK2  I guess Javier will have to remove the 1st wire from any future updates of the Nimitz class carrier  

You know I just now remembered that. I agree Javier will have tio change the deck style and island a litttle if he makes the Reagan and Bush.

[SpazSinbad]

ES.... has said it all about '1 wire'. Another reference would be the term 'taxi 1', meaning landing well before the 1 wire to then 'taxi' (haha) up to the arrest on 1 wire. Very dangerous on smaller carriers with minimal hook to ramp clearance (around 10-4 feet for the Hornet but I'll check) meaning minimal deck distance from ramp to 1 wire. There is a video of an A4G Skyhawk doing a 'taxi 1' on HMAS Melbourne. It always creeps me out when I see it (even after many times - I'm cringeing).  

The LSO PDFs mentioned elsewhere would have 'hook to ramp' info but searching for more found this: (.doc file 74Kbs)

http://www.cvw7.navy.mil/inc/cmodules/dms/download-rel.php?secid=99&id=0&filesystem_id=7199

SIGNAL OFFICER TRAINING/CARRIER LANDING SAFETY PROGRAM

"Glide slope.  When using the FLOLS/IFLOLS, under normal conditions the following basic angles will be used.

         Basic Angle          Relative Head Wind
         3.5 degrees          < 33 kts
         3.75 degrees         33-37 kts (Hornets 33Klbs)                  
         4.0 degrees           > 37 kts sustained (Hornets 33Klbs/half flaps)

        (5) Wind.  During normal operations wind calls will be made periodically. During “ZIP LIP,” wind calls will not be made if WOD is 25-30 knots."

Changing the glideslope basic angle helps keep safe 'hook to ramp' when conditions not ideal ie. ship movement. "Consideration should be given to rigging MOVLAS when deck movement is + 7 feet or when LSO’s must talk 50% of the time."

"Groove length.  Proper groove length is 15-18 seconds, 19-21 seconds will be graded as “little long in the groove.”  If it is required to waveoff a LIG aircraft it will be graded as 2.0 points (WOP).

        (Hook skip bolters.  Hook skip bolters may or may not count against boarding rate.  If the hook skip was pilot induced i.e., fast nose down, or dropped nose to land, then the hook skip shall be graded as a bolter and count against boarding rate.  If the hook skip was not pilot induced, the pass will be graded as a "no-count" and shall not be counted against boarding rate."

[SpazSinbad]

burner12, here is a great story that may answer some questions about 'what is acceptable':

http://www.neptunuslex.com/Wiki/2009/11/05/event-nine/

"We had a long talk about Taz and his future as a Naval Aviator…" Taz is a problem child - I hope he made it.

[burner12]

Thanks for the story it was interseting. but here's a question. if you're on approach and you get a red ball is your approach over and you have to go     around even if you are 1.5 or 2 miles out? Now if you were 3/4 of mile and get a red then i'd understand,but if you are far enough away to adjust the altitude and speed can you continue the approach and disregard the red ball once it changes to low yellow?

[micro]

When you're that far out you really cant see the ball, you just flying  the needles. But yeah, if you can see it, because of the way you approach the glideslope, it will be red, then low, then centered. Thats when you start down. Thats at night of course, during the day if you roll into the groove and see a red ball...... well...... just don't do it.

[SpazSinbad]

burner12, from what I have read from LSO material and 'how to deck land' material, it would seem that a 'red ball' is not acceptable in ordinary circumstances, necessitating an 'own waveoff'. However that implies the 'red ball' (too low) is seen from a reasonable start position. Usually this 'reasonable start' is from 1nm to 3/4 nm when it is possible to see the ball clearly. Further out from one mile under ordinary circumstances I believe the ball in relation to datum lights is too indistinct. However I gather one may be able to see 'just a red ball' even way out there (perhaps on a deliberate long straight in approach). Otherwise the rule for 'straightaway length' applies. Somewhere else an ideal groove length time was noted (I forget all these details - forgive me). My guess was that some 18 seconds or less was good with slightly longer perhaps acceptable and then even longer not acceptable. So seeing a 'red ball' way out beyond one nautical mile (if possible) would be 'waved off' for being too long in the groove.

Carrier ops are efficient. Aircraft land with the minimum separation hence LSOs have their hands in the air for foul deck all the time - getting a clear deck when aircraft already in the groove. This is ideal. Being long in the groove will upset the next aircraft so may as well wave off the perpertrator (chap too long). ['perpetrator' is a person who commits a bad deed.]  

EDIT: WHAT 'microbrewst'    says also - we posted at same time. Night ops have a minimum level below which no one can go. Other diagrams for CASE X approaches may note this minimum level (for night and IMC approaches).

[burner12]

When you say it starts out as red the low then centered do you mean that's the way it's designed?

And I guess it's just FSX because whenever I roll in on either the FSX accel carriers or Fernandez's the wave off lights are always flashing and I alway get a red ball even when I above 800ft. Then at about 1.5-1.2 miles out it goes to non flashing and yellow ball. I guess it's just the way the carriers are designed, unlike the real life ones. Would you agree?

Thanks for the info SpazSinbad. I would agree that until you get to about 1 mile out you are being coached in by the LSOs, and then at 1nm you canthen start using the ball and LSOs to help you with your approach.

[SpazSinbad]

burner12, I'll have to relook at a CASE x approach diagram for the Hornet. However as a rough guess IF THE BALL IS VISIBLE which I doubt from any distance beyond 1.5nm one may see a 'red ball' but nothing else of note. This presupposes one is at a level at that distance which allows one to see the 'red ball'. In FSX - if the red waveoff lights are flashing and you are not within visual range and NOT TOO LOW - then of course ignore these lights at that 'super long in the groove distance' - whatever it might be. I'll look for the Hornet NATOPS CASE X diagrams now.

Otherwise I hope it is clear during an ordinary day approach (not straight in) seeing a red ball is a NoNO! In daytime we are always assuming that you are within any other daytime parameters in the circuit where the RED BALL (which will be seen in relation to the dataum lights) means wave off.

[burner12]

burner12, I'll have to relook at a CASE x approach diagram for the Hornet. However as a rough guess IF THE BALL IS VISIBLE which I doubt from any distance beyond 1.5nm one may see a 'red ball' but nothing else of note. This presupposes one is at a level at that distance which allows one to see the 'red ball'. In FSX - if the red waveoff lights are flashing and you are not within visual range and NOT TOO LOW - then of course ignore these lights at that 'super long in the groove distance' - whatever it might be. I'll look for the Hornet NATOPS CASE X diagrams now.

Otherwise I hope it is clear during an ordinary day approach (not straight in) seeing a red ball is a NoNO! In daytime we are always assuming that you are within any other daytime parameters in the circuit where the RED BALL (which will be seen in relation to the dataum lights) means wave off.

I understand now thanks SpazSinbad. And don't trouble yourself in finding that Case X approach. IF you do great, but if not no big deal. I guess sometimes I roll in a little too close and too low. but I know I'll get my sea legs back after doing some practice.

[SpazSinbad]

One example of a 'step down' approach (for safety) is a CCA Carrier Controlled Approach. Diagram from NATOPS shows the step down - remember though until a set distance or calling the ball the approaching pilot/aircraft is under control of the 'approach controller' on the ship, who is watching a precision radar screen to advise pilot of course to steer and rate of descent to maintain - until minimums reached. These minimums (height / distance) may apply to different pilot experience levels [this would be another strand to investigate].

Going only on long ago limits (for example) with this type of approach, some pilots had to overshoot if the runway / mirror were not seen at half a mile / 400 feet or for the more experienced (and via skill testing) quarter of a mile and 200 feet. Coming out of cloud at that minimum to see the ball - and deck land - even in daytime is no joke. I'm not claiming to have done it but watched an A4G from the LSO platform make such a minimum approach. A very good one it was also.

Other 'CASE' approach diagrams will follow.

[burner12]

You know I just tried an appproach out with Fernandez's carriers and at night along with that new HUd. And when I was 1.0nm out the ball finally changed from red to yellow and green lights across. So it seems FSX does simulate it in a fair enough way.

[SpazSinbad]

burner12, yep - another diagram - this time from the LSO NATOPS showing some things to be considered in the carrier circuit when ship is rolling for example. However all this stuff is 'by the by' if the pilot is watching the meatball etc and flying according to NATOPS advice (not going below 400 feet? before sighting the ball for example). There is a diagram showing the distance / height that the ball / glideslope can cover - not that it means a lot to the pilot who needs to be able to see sharply enough to differentiate what the lights show in relation to datum. Once beyond around 1.5nm apparently it is just a bright light (which may be red apparently). Certainly carrier landing and the aids for such are precision instruments which need to be used precisely for a good outcome.