The Pitching Deck Saga

[Afterburn93]

Now everyone finally understand the irony of neutrino "neutrinoing" everyone in the session, because, that is exactly what a neutrino is.

[Sludge]

To me it looks like the carrier moves too rapidly up and down. It is a large ship so it will move perhaps as much as it appears to move - but about at least half as slowly. That was my impression anyway. Do you get paid for those approaches?  

I agree, the deck is pitching waaay too fast.

Fellas, I dont think the deck is pitching too fast, I think the deck is pitching too high and low to land.  If you look at this YouTube, the LSOs are standing around while the deck pitching seems too high, then as the jets are landing, look at the deck pitch off the forward end.  Its alot less than before.

Here is an excerpt from a paper written about the safety/limitations for landing during carrier qualifications.  Also notice, the "optimum" WoD is 25 kts, which would require a 3.5 Meatball and ICLS.   As well as the max crosswind component being 7kts.  So for all us "hardcore, night flyers" in the SF mission where we are out there in the dark and land in 8+ kts of crosswind, we are out of LIMs.  But thats the real challenging part for FSX carrier operations, landing out of LIMs

http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation2/3740.9Dwch1&2&3&4/3740.9Dwch1&2&3&40021.htm

Overall, this project may be a moot point if someone doesnt figure out a way to get a working Meatball or Cats on a "pitching" carrier, but was just offering some observations.

Later
Sludge

[SpazSinbad]

Good info find Sludge. Graphic from your URL link below. About the video of pitching deck. Movement can be exaggerated by the zoom lens of camera effect. Also position of camera in relation to the deck can change viewer perception. While (without knowing exact circumstances at the time) perhaps the worst movement seen is because the carrier is not at 'flying stations' and not at ideal recovery ship speed with WOD ideal for conditions and ship movement optimised for conditions. How fast a carrier moves into the swell (with type/length between swell) is important. The captain will know how to get the best (least movement) on the day.

So perhaps we see initially the ship side on to swell or moving into flight operation conditions. Then when at ideal recovery circumstances things look different. Whatever - looks challenging nevertheless. Big ocean swells can be deceptive. When the distance between swell is such that the ship moves a lot - then it will. At other times the ship will not move so much in similar but shorter time between swell sea states. Smaller carriers can move less in the same conditions that will cause a larger carrier to move a lot. It all depends I guess.   

This movement speed as seen briefly in the example FSX video is too fast to be credible was my point, but that is only my opinion. I guess the speed of movement is realistic for a small boat but not for a large carrier.

[Sludge]

Spaz...

I dont think the rate of movement was out of whack.  Maybe a touch fast, but I think the range of motion (+/- 30ft, visual estimation) for landing LIMs was too much.  I mean Ive deployed on a carrier and 5ft of movement on a carrier is not that much.  IRL, it would be a barricade/ditching situation if the deck was pitching that much and that was the pilot's final option.  But again, thats IRL, not simming.  In sim, we can pretty much do what we want, without crash detect enabled.

How fast a carrier moves into the swell (with type/length between swell) is important. The captain will know how to get the best (least movement) on the day.

In trying to get close to real life, you have to realize the LIMs of FSX.  There is no captain, and Im mostly talking about how we can make this the closest approximation to real life with what we have in FSX.  Obviously, there is no LSO to talk to CATCC/AirBoss/Captain to set ship's course and speed and find out an actual sea state for realistic launch/trap evolutions.  Nor is there a true sea state as we all know with the sorry "seas" we get in FSX.  Yeah, they can look pretty with some add-on/mods, but in the end, they are simply eye-candy and not even close to being different states.  All we have are sets of variables that we change in a program that dictate the simulated environment.  Those are the things that Im referencing.  Certainly in the weekend Multiplayer, our initial BRC is 277 mag, w/8 kts of headwind.  Thats it, end of story.  As a "simulated" AirBoss/Paddles, there's nobody I can talk to or change that "in game".  Those are numbers IceCream put into the mission parameters and they are set in stone for that mission.

Anybody have any luck finding a fix/workaround for getting the Meatball or working Cats added to the pitching carrier?  If not, I will research this when I get home, but loosely remember a forum thread on some other site, where I found this guy altered the CG and the contact points of a coast guard cutter and it was "bobbing" (pitching) thru the waves.  Those guys problem was that it wouldnt maintain the "bobbing" action because the oscillations of that effect die down over time?  Let me get back to you on this, if I can find that forum again.

Later
Sludge

[SpazSinbad]

Yes it is difficult to discuss FSX and 'real life' and I will always acknowledge that FSX is a fun simulator and never going to be like the real world but in an effort to get the sim 'more like real life' these issues are worth discussing, and they are only opinions - mine anyway. The original 'pitching deck' video was very dark on my computer. Here it is 'topped and tailed' (acknowledgements always to original maker) but lightened (but close to original quality I hope) so that more detail can be seen. Landing visually on a pitching deck should be a banned. 

http://www.filefront.com/15858767/FSXpitchingDeckHiQdvdLightenedWMP.wmv  (8.8Mbs)

[average_joe]

Gang,

Here are some real world numbers from real world experience.

1. Day VFR landing pattern: Downwind at 600'; 1-1.25 miles abeam. Start turn to final bearing between LSO platform and aft end of flight deck; at the 90 position be at 450'; at the 45 position be at 350'; crossing the wake (a real wake is much narrower than the FSX wake) be at 300'; roll out on centerline 3/4 mile from the ship (approx 17-20 seconds on the ball).

2. Instrument pattern: outside of 3 miles from the ship be dirty and on speed and at 1200'. Track inbound and at 3 miles tip over to glideslope (the numbers equate to a 4 degree static glideslope). Follow needles until 3/4 miles and then transition to visual acquisition of the ball. If you're simulating real weather, ILS on the ship minimums are 200' and 1/2 mile. ACLS (which FSX doesn't simulate) is 100' and 1/4 mile.

3. Small point for someone working details of the carrier model ... no personnel in the landing area during landing. All personnel to the right side of the landing area 'foul' line.

4. For a pitching deck, the glideslope is stabilized. The carrier pitches in a sine wave fashion. Try a 6' amplitude; 30 sec period ... if someone can figure out how to do this in FSX code. That's a reasonable sea state for less than ideal weather. 30' swells are typhoon waves or winter in the North Atlantic/Pacific ... extremis conditions.

5. If you want to use a holding pattern for the IFR approach, the holding radial is the reciprocal of the final bearing, range is 15 nmi + the holding altitude in thousands (holding at Angels 18 ... 15 + 18 = 33 DME). Descend out of holding at 33 DME inbound to the ship. Holding is a 6 min left hand race track (1 minute legs). Be at 1200' at 6 DME. Stay at 1200' until 3 DME

6. If someone is really into carrier detail, he can model the 'autodog' machine. Spaz knows what I'm talking about ...

[SpazSinbad]

avjoe: Thanks for your real world input (mine is olde worlde on A4Gs 38 years ago now). 'AutoDog'? Wot? WOOF!

[SpazSinbad]

HMAS Melbourne did not have PLAT camera technology - instead PHOTs wandered or from fixed positions filmed (with film only being developed if there was an incident) or photographed what they could, often putting themselves at risk (with orders not to do that again). That is why there is a lot of video and still photos of A4G Skyhawk operations on HMAS Melbourne (my time was actually 1971-2) and I have collated a bunch of material in a PDF or in a Video(s) that can be downloaded here:

www.a4ghistory.com

Smaller versions of above files can be downloaded from: http://www.filefront.com/user/SpazSinbad

There are a few classics with one A4G tipping onto port wingtip due to ship wallowing and A4G drifting from right to left during approach/arrest. All the incidents work out well - a bonus.

Looking at this website: http://www.aboutlanguageschools.com/language/slang/navy-slang.asp  I could assume that an 'autodog' approach is one where the 'lollygaggers' (onlookers) are watching the PLAT with their 'autodogs'?  The RAN FAA had the 'goofers' (as above).

[average_joe]

Spaz,

'autodog' ... it's the heart and soul of US Navy Carrier aviation ... it's the soft ice cream machine on the mess decks and in the wardroom. Soft ice cream machine ... has the handle that looks like the dog's tail ... lift the dog's tail and ice cream automatically fills your bowl ... imagine chocolate ice cream ... and the rest is Naval tradition!!

I don't think it's something that was on carriers in your time.

I've been to Perth on a few port visits ... love that Swan lager!

[Orion]

'AutoDog'? Wot? WOOF!

I was thinking the same .

[SpazSinbad]

avjoe, Yeah got the ice cream choccy doodoo msg.    HMAS Melbourne had limited aircon - probably one cold water fountain (near aircon aircrew briefing room - one only) in a ship built for cold North Atlantic operating in warm to tropical waters. It was a sauna. Your autodog machine would have made instant warm milk there!   

Recently some old Navy News (RAN) have become available online so a few 'visiting USN carrier' pics have been snaffled into the new version of the PDF (to be updated again in a few days). Here is a classic 'wheelie' photo at Fremantle for USS Constellation (old carriers used to 'wheel' under the power of prop aircraft on deck which was not good for the prop engines so seldom used in practice).

[SpazSinbad]

I keep forgetting about Utube. The original music has been messed up due to the copyright b/s but the video with the A4G ops with various incidents/accidents (turn down the sound) is still OK:

OR
Home page: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=bengello

[Orion]

This is actually harder than I thought...

[Orion]

Edit: I've put the video back.  As with my previous posting, please excuse my not-so-good landing.

[JamesChams]

Mr. Orion,

...P.S. Please excuse my bad landing.

A little bit of a hard slam but, you did pretty good there on the landing...
Also, saw the deck pitch (in the beginning of the video); how have you all accomplished this in FSX?  Something to add into the Sim.cfg files?