T-45C Goshawk realistic HUD and awesome video :)

[SpazSinbad]

neutrino, as people are saying here and elsewhere 'carrier landings sure got much more doable in FSX now' thanks to your team's sterling efforts.

[neutrino]

Spaz, thanks I just posted on another forum something that you might find interesting, you can correct me if I am wrong about something, I used your pdf file as a reference for the T-45C. This was the original question:

That is a nice video. One question, however. Does the T-45 land without flaps as shown in the video? It would seem to me that you would want to use flaps on landing?

... And below is what I posted:

The correct thing of course is to land with full flaps, but I did not use flaps at all in the video. The reason is that Dino's T-45C reaches it's optimum approach angle of attack (about 8 degrees or the velocity vector centered in the E-bracket) at a very low speed of about 105 kts with full flaps. The real T-45C landing speed (with full flaps) however is about 120 kts. So I wanted to land at the optimum approach angle of attack AND at the real T-45C landing speed of 120 kts. I found that this could be achieved with flaps UP (no flpas) and speed brake ON. It also helps to land at a higher speed if you land at max fuel.

This is a screenshot from the video. You can see that the aircraft is at the optimum AOA (yellow donut on the indexer and velocity vector in the center of the E-bracket) at 119 kts:

[SpazSinbad]

neutrino, I cannot speak for Dino Cattaneo but we had an e-mail conversation about that aspect (slower than advertised IAS for Goshawk in FSX). The 'Goshawk Gouge' advertises the IAS for different weights in 500lb increments (I think) for Optimum AoA (I'll have to check). Which is best to use? IMHO I think using the conditions set by the Fsim model designer is the way to go - others may have a different opinion. Perhaps Dino will go back to making modifications to the Goshawk. Why don't you contact him about it? He must be pleased with the new HUD - which shows the inaccuracy (remember before the NEW HUD, the real world IAS could be gleaned from the aircraft tables only).

Carrier Landings are carried out in a standard configuration. Anything else is an 'emergency' of some kind. The LSO would make special consideration for the 'emergency' - the pilot also. A Goshawk would not carrier land unless it could do so in FULL FLAP. Not sure if they would practice ship carrier landings in any other configuration except hook down. It can land with full fuel so that is not an issue. Always the IAS will be whatever the Optimum Angle of Attack is for the given weight. The chart exists to allow a rough check by pilot that his AoA indexer is working accurately.

The LSO needs a standard configuration to enable him to gauge the approach in the same conditions for any aircraft type. If that aircraft is at Opt AoA then it looks the same to him. This is important. The LSO uses the aircraft attitude for a physical frame of reference that is very accurate. He knows more than the pilot - no kidding. By inference then if the aircraft landing config is changed from the standard then that is a different frame of reference which the LSO has to allow for and likely will not be so familiar with (except ashore).

My Goshawk landing technique is to use FULL FUEL to get the slow Opt AoA up - the engine RPM is up also.

REQUEST: Would it be possible to add .PDF to the file types that can be added as attachments to this forum please? PDFs allow documents to be the same - unlike .DOCs for example where formatting can change radically. In any event I'll make a .DOC out of a TRAWNG PDF and attach it soon (if the conversion from PDF to .DOC goes OK but it does not look good due to a 'funny' font being used in the original PDF).

HMMMM.     I did not notice that .ZIP is a possibility so here is an edited GOSHAWK 'how to deck land' PDF zipped. It does not have everything but nothing ever does eh. More PDFs zipped later....

[JamesChams]

Mr. J. R. "neutrino,"

Thanks again for the fine work you've done to this...
The only thing I found missing in your Aircraft.cfg is the correct TAILHOOK settings for Mr. Dino's model.
You can find the settings here: Aircraft AI Carrier Configurations v1.9 by James F. Chams

 

====================================================
 
T-45C Goshawk v1.85
---------------------

Modify this "Aircraft.Cfg" File with the statements below:

...\Microsoft Games\Microsoft Flight Simulator X\SimObjects\Airplanes\Boeing_T45C\Aircraft.Cfg



// Modified by James F. Chams @2009.
// =================================

[tailHook]
tailhook_length=2.5
tailhook_position=-15.6, 0.0, -2.63 // -18.6, 0.0, -2.63 // Modified to align correctly with the Tailhook
cable_force_adjust=1.5


Launch Assist in coded into the model's (.mdl) file and is therefore NOT needed here.

 
====================================================

 

Thanks again!  

[SpazSinbad]

James, thanks for the 'hook/arrest' mod. Can you explain please briefly? Thanks.

Here is the TakeOff/Landing Weight IAS chart for the Goshawk (AFAIK). The other than full flap settings for landing are for ashore 'emergency' or otherwise 'practice' landings. To my knowledge there is no provision for landing onboard other than with full flap.

[JamesChams]

James, thanks for the 'hook/arrest' mod. Can you explain please briefly? Thanks.

Here is the TakeOff/Landing Weight IAS chart for the Goshawk (AFAIK). The other than full flap settings for landing are for ashore 'emergency' or otherwise 'practice' landings. To my knowledge there is no provision for landing onboard other than with full flap.

Mr. "SpazSinbad,"

I'm NOT entirely sure I understand your question?  However, if your looking for what is done (proceedurally) on an approach to a carrier then it is based on exact weight/speed criteria as the chart describes.  However, for the T-45A FULL Flaps were always used on approaches as a requirement for shipboard operations due to the limited Thrust-weight characteristics of the engine and the slow speeds of the aircraft on the approach.  But, that was often with low fuel onboard and all remaining ordinances jettisoned.  FYI: Full flaps allows for higher lift gain characters at slower speeds and, in LOW pressure atmospheric environments, maintaining/controlling lift on an approach is a must.  But, for the T-45C, I'm NOT sure what they've implemented since then.  I suggest getting a hold of an AFM, if able.

Is that what you were asking?


EDIT:
 Look at pages 5-21 of the manual you've posted. It says, ...

"d. Maintain 130 KIAS (dirty)."

The word "Dirty" means FULL Flaps, etc. ... Hope that answers your question.  

[SpazSinbad]

Jame, Apologies, we got our wires crossed. My question was about why the mod was made. I have an understanding of carrier landings otherwise. I'll say more about the Goshawk carrier landing later. Gotta go at moment  -  'later' as they say...

[JamesChams]

...My question was about why the mod was made....

Mr. "SpazSinbad,"
Simply to fix issues like this (incorrect "Aircraft.cfg" Tailhook settings vs. models placement causing mishaps, like missed wires/crashes, on Carrier landings).  And, to add Carrier Functionality to models that didn't have it to begin with but, either by user desire/request or because they are Naval/Carrier Aircraft, should have had that ability installed.  Now they do... 

e.g.
Problem: CaptainSim F/A-18D (settings off)



Solution: CaptainSim F/A-18D (settings Tailhook Fixed)




Sleep well!

[SpazSinbad]

James, Thanks I had seen your earlier posts about the issues with the hook placement in regard to the FSX Hornet, so I was wondering about the Goshawk problem. Good to know it is fixed. Thanks for that. You can call me 'Spaz' by the way. That is why the moniker is like it is. Sometimes things happen when one has an online name that is not one's own name. 'Spaz' suits me fine. 

[SpazSinbad]

James, about the Goshawk T-45C real or simulated carrier landing characteristics I can go only on what I've read (mentioned in various threads about these issues on this forum). I don't have a Goshawk NATOPS but the 'gouges' I have read look to have come from those 'pilot flying manuals' along with course notes for the same.

Not having flown a Hornet either it was very interesting to discover this forum with the extreme levels of skill in flying/modding the Hornet in FSX to be found. Why go anywhere else. I have learnt a lot - also being forced to find my own answers about various issues (perhaps not relevant to the sim).

Anyway to me it is interesting to see how real and sim world intermingle when people talk about the Hornet or the Goshawk on this forum. It is good to see because I think it shows just how good it all is in the simulator itself (given all the restrictions that are inevitable with the PC platform with small screens etc.).

PC simulator flying - especially carrier flying - has made a huge leap with the mods from people on this forum. My experience with MsFsim goes back to the beginning but with a quick realisation that the setups were just not good enough (for carrier aviation).

My own flying experience was in the RAN FAA some 35-40 years ago flying Skyhawks from the smallest carrier possible. Every time I'm using Fsim (particularly later versions) it has been extraordinary to be able to recreate (in my mind anyway) that feeling of flying via the sim. That is an advantage for those who have been in a light aeroplane/or similar at the controls that others may not have. However the big advantage for desk pilots is that they can walk away from every crash, which may not bring the best out of the sim flying pilot.

My attempt here is to contribute not so much any technical skills about sim aviation modding but to add a dose of realism (if that is possible) to some of the flying techniques. For any carrier pilot there is nothing else to do - runway landings can be problematic - if one makes them that way - but carrier flying requires the best all the time. Sure there are crashes but the 'motivation' as you see in that zipped PDF 'is to do your best at every opportunity'.

However we all need to have fun and to experiment with different settings or ways of flying - I have no argument with that at all. Yet there is a way to do carrier flying properly and that can be kept in mind or stressed as needs be. To me that marvellous video of the pair of Goshawks returning to the carrier in SanFran captured what it is like (notwithstanding some errors discussed already) but the spirit was there and good to see, very inspiring.

Anyway I cannot claim to have knowledge of USN aircraft of today, only the Skyhawk A4G, but the principles of carrier flying apply (as I read/hear/understand) even today. Meatball, lineup and airspeed. If you don't have your flaps down the LSO will shout "FLAPS" or wave you off! I've not looked at the Goshawk T-45A specifications so cannot comment. Anyway your ideas about being dirty with everything hanging out is the way to carrier land for reasons you describe. One exception being that the Hornet does not use speedbrake due to technical difficulties. However in the sim it could be used (with the full flap mod) to help get/keep the engine RPM up during the carrier approach.

I'd rather refer to publications or websites online or the excellent movie made by the Virtual Blue Angels (mentioned a few times on this forum). However I'm happy to attempt to answer specific questions as best as possible, given the limitations outlined earlier. BTW I've not used the multi-player mode/carriers so cannot comment on them or the missions but have noted (other comments) that they are also good work. What a great forum this is. I'll shutup now.  

NB: A lot of the material seen here ends up in the 4.4GB PDF online - that is my motivation. Your questions help give content to this PDF regarding carrier landings today (compared to yesteryear for example). The GIF graphic below will be another PDF page in the Goshawk 'how to carrier land' section.

[SpazSinbad]

James, a point about the reference you gave (page 5.21) in the PDF manual. The 130 knots refers to the IAS required dirty in the DELTA (holding) pattern [Delta Easy] (waiting to get into the carrier circuit). Otherwise the aicraft must go to Optimum Angle of Attack going downwind turning base etc for final approach. Page 5-17 onwards is the carrier circuit reference. Then after a touch and go or bolter turning downwind 130 knots is a speed reference but otherwise Optimum Angle of Attack. Students get a bit more IAS for 'margin of error' but otherwise carrier pilots fly Opt AoA in circuit (unless stated otherwise).

FCLP starting page 1.-14 has the detail that is not repeated (because it is more or less the same) out at the ship.

[SpazSinbad]

From the same zipped PDF this very much edited GIF graphic has the required details for Goshawk T-45C FCLP which are the same it is made clear for out at the carrier. Of course it is much better to read the entire PDF because there are many details edited out. Of much more importance in the PDF are techniques for specific situations during the approach. Bear in mind these are notes for a lecture, which when given will be fleshed out with a lot of verbal explanation.

[SpazSinbad]

ALL the Goshawk T-45C PDFs from 'the horse's mouth' CNATRA: https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/pubs/ppub_t45_str.htm

(Don't worry about any 'security' warning in Windows - this is a common problem - just click through)

ALL Publications available on 'download page' PDF (zipped) with the clickable URLs in "Chief of Naval Air Training _ T-45 Strike ALL pub URLs.pdf" (14Kb)

Another more friendly page (mentioned earlier) without all the pubs is at: http://www.airwarrior.net/Files.html

[JamesChams]

Mr. "Spaz," it is...   Thanks for the .PDF's; its well worth the read for the Sim, as it is for the Real world.

Have A Merry Christmas!

[SpazSinbad]

No probs. Have a good Xmas yourself and get a copy of the FSX Accelerator KAHU A-4K Skyhawk for a present.    BTW I did not get a chance to check the .AIR file modifications before it is released so 'Don't Blame Me!    Nah it should be fine. The HUD has the AoA indication while similar to Hornet/Goshawk the AoA Indexer was retained next to the HUD. The A-4K has a brake chute, buddy refuel tank option with several others, working leading edge slats, proper spoiler / speedbrake interface - de woiks including da hook.