Noisy ground textures at night

[Brittanix]

Im experiencing noisy ground textures (at night with taxi lights on) on several sections of the taxi ways and partially in the paved parking areas.

I would post pictures, but you cant tell in the screenshots.
I can post some images of the areas concerned. Its where the taxi way ground textures change appearance.

Anyone else having this problem?

[virtuali]

You are not using SSAA antialiasing, and you probably haven't read the manual for Basel, which at page 6 shows, with two screenshot, the difference between MSAA and SSAA, suggesting to use SSAA to prevent this problem.

[Brittanix]

I am actually using 4x SSAA ...

[virtuali]

I am actually using 4x SSAA ...

Is your screen looking like the MSAA example in the manual ? If yes, then you are probably not using 4.5 HF2, since before this version, SSAA didn't really work.

[Brittanix]

Yes, its looking like in the manual. Certain parts of the taxi ways has much more shimmering than the paving shown in the picture.

And yes, I am using the latest version of P3D4 (4.5.13.32097), which includes HF2.

[virtuali]

Yes, its looking like in the manual. Certain parts of the taxi ways has much more shimmering than the paving shown in the picture.

You mean it looks like the MSAA screenshot, even if you are at SSAA ? So, to be entirely clear, doesn't look anywhere close to the SSAA screenshot in the manual ?

And yes, I am using the latest version of P3D4 (4.5.13.32097), which includes HF2.

Have you updated with the Client only ? It's possible this is another thing requiring a Content update too.

[Brittanix]

Yes Umberto, looks like the MSAA picture, although I’m using 4x SSAA.

It’s a complete and new install of 4.5.13.32097, not just an update.

I’m using Nvidia Inspector which is enhancing the AA. I can't imagine that NI is interfering, but I will disable later to see if it makes any difference.

[virtuali]

I’m using Nvidia Inspector which is enhancing the AA. I can't imagine that NI is interfering, but I will disable later to see if it makes any difference.

It is likely interfering and, when you use the inspector to change AA settings, you cannot be sure anymore the AA settings you read in the sim are really the ones which will be used, and it's not even always clear if it's really "enhancing" or "replacing" or what the end result would be.

In your case, it seems the inspector has reverted back to MSAA. Try to use the additional mode available with the inspector, like "Enhance the application setting" AND  "8x sparse grid super sampling"

[Brittanix]

Its not NI either, there is no change. I have compared MSAA and SSAA and do notice a huge difference, but I still get shimmering with SSAA.

I have re-installed the LFSB scenery and noticed something which is interesting. Before, large parts of the taxi ways were fine, with only a few sections in between doing the shimmering.
Now that I have made a re-install, its excatly the other way around. Now a large portion of the taxi ways are shimmering and only a few short section in between are fine.
You can see the texture differences in the screenshot. Any idea whats going on here?

[Er!k]

I have the same issue. In my sim I chose to use '2x Sparse Grid Supersampling' (a mix of MSAA and SSAA), when using MSAA it is *killing* performance at night with dynamic lighting.

[virtuali]

Its not NI either, there is no change. I have compared MSAA and SSAA and do notice a huge difference, but I still get shimmering with SSAA.

As I've said, the screenshot in the manual shows the difference between MSAA and SSAA. This is what you are supposed to see with a properly configured video card settings. You said yourself your result looked more like the MSAA example so, if you cannot see what you are supposed to see with normal SSAA settings ( the SSAA example in the manual ), it's clear that something is not set correctly, most likely in the inspector, so you should try different settings, because it should be possible to obtain with the inspector at least the SAME result one would get with *NO* tweaks whatsoever, meaning everything default and just SSAA enabled in the sim, which is how I took the screenshot.

I have re-installed the LFSB scenery and noticed something which is interesting. Before, large parts of the taxi ways were fine, with only a few sections in between doing the shimmering.Now that I have made a re-install, its excatly the other way around. Now a large portion of the taxi ways are shimmering and only a few short section in between are fine. You can see the texture differences in the screenshot. Any idea whats going on here?

I have no idea how this could possibly happen, since we surely haven't updated any textures in the meantime, and our installer will not touch ANY of your graphic settings.

[virtuali]

I have the same issue. In my sim I chose to use '2x Sparse Grid Supersampling' (a mix of MSAA and SSAA), when using MSAA it is *killing* performance at night with dynamic lighting.

Are you sure you are referring to MSAA to killing peformances at night ? MSAA is what you shouldn't use, because it causes shimmering but, it's usually a bit better for fps.

In any case, there's no point discussing this anymore. With no tweaks, SSAA WILL look like in the screenshot at Page 6 of the manual, and that's how the scenery is supposed to look like.

For those that tweaked their system and for any reasons ( compatibility, personal tastes, performances ), so they are unable/unwilling to set the proper antialiasing mode as suggested in the manual, we'll shortly release an alternate set of textures with toned down textures, like we did with KORD V2. It will look more flat, even at day when the problem doesn't exists, but it will surely reduce shimmering at night.

No, we won't make it to switch automatically from PBR to PBR-less from day to night, even if we could, because dynamic texture switching has some performance cost associated with it, since a LUA script should be used for these textures, and scripts are evaluated at each frame, for each material that has one, so we want to use them only if strictly necessary.

So, with the next Live Update, you'll find an alternate set of ground textures which will be more flat, but they will have to be enabled manually.

[Brittanix]

In regards to taxi ways there are obviously two different sets of textures. As you can see in the screenshot, a section is absolutely fine, then comes a section which shimmers, then follows another section which is fine etc etc.
Is that supposed to be a mix of textures? If the taxi ways were completely as in the top half of my screenshot then it would be perfect.

[virtuali]

Is that supposed to be a mix of textures? If the taxi ways were completely as in the top half of my screenshot then it would be perfect.

Of course there are, there several kind of materials, which is how the real airport is made. All of them are physically correct ( that's what PBR is all about ) but, again, depending on your antialiasing settings, some of them might show less or more shimmering, depending on the quantity of high frequency content they have. High-frequency is basically the amount of the smaller details. Something that has lots of tiny specks or thin lines is more subject to moire/shimmering.

You must understand moire effects in PBR cannot removed ENTIRELY, this is not even possible with the most modern graphic engines, like Unreal 4, see this explanation here

https://answers.unrealengine.com/questions/121845/moire-problems.html

And UE4 have far more advanced settings that might help reducing this, like Temporal Antialiasing, yet it cannot be solved entirely, if you want PBR ( which simply doesn't work without normal maps at all), it's just that you have been so accustomed to old style flat sceneries, that you are starting to see this only with the more recent PBR releases.

Now that I hope you finally understand the issue, and we clarified it's NOT a scenery problem or a bug, please refer back to my previous reply, in which I confirmed we offer an alternate set of textures with toned down maps. They won't be physically correct anymore, but if you cannot sort out your AA problems, or you cannot use the proper settings for any other reasons, they will do.

[Brittanix]

Thank you for your answers Umberto. I look forward to the alternative textures which I may use at night then 

Other than that night issue, a great scenery! Been looking forward to this for a long time