rudder question

[bushwacker]

hi all,

my rudder pedals work great on deck as NWS, but in the air it seems to have no impact at all. I have a cougar with elite pedals. I believe I have it set-up correctly in FSX settings, although I could be missing something. They are recognized and calibrated in Thrustmaster/ Foxy software. Any thoughts?

[SpazSinbad]

Why would you use the rudder in a Hornet in the air? Real world it is never likely to be used; except perhaps in specific ACM conditions or unusual attitude recoveries. Otherwise rudders not needed. I'll check with my 'twist the stick' rudder in the sim.

[SpazSinbad]

Excerpt from the Super Hornet NATOPS (sorry don't have Hornet NATOPS) may help explain how rudder is really only effective in very slow IAS (and at circuit speeds) instances and otherwise not so effective or limited in high speed flight:

"Some traditional directional control capability is returned at low airspeed and high AOA only when
the pilot applies lateral stick and rudder in the same direction. This feature starts becoming effective
only at airspeeds below approximately 225 KCAS and above 20° AOA but is most effective at
approximately 120 KCAS and 34° AOA. Enabling this feature outside of these conditions would
compromise departure resistance. When this feature is enabled, the sum of lateral stick and rudder
pedal command is no longer limited to a value equal to a full lateral stick input. The excess roll
command is fed to the directional axis to command sideslip. For example, adding full rudder pedal with
a full lateral stick input provides a maximum roll and yaw command. Alternatively, adding lateral stick
to an existing full rudder pedal input has the same effect. The resulting aircraft motion is a highly
controllable nose-high to nose-low reversal.

At high airspeeds, symmetric rudder deflection is reduced and the rudders are toed in to avoid
exceeding vertical tail structural limits."
____________________

It seems from same Super Hornet NATOPS that at air refuelling speeds between 180-300 the rudder can be used in these circumstances:

"Make small corrections during the approach phase [to the basket] using the rudder pedals for lateral misalignment
and longitudinal stick for vertical misalignment."
__________________

Here is a key phrase from 'Flight Characteristics':

"The FCS provides good lateral directional control of the aircraft. The Rolling Surface to Rudder Interconnect (RSRI) function along with sideslip and sideslip rate feedback are used to coordinate lateral inputs, reducing pilot workload by allowing feet-on-floor maneuvering for most situations."

__________________________

OCF (Out of Controlled Flight) OCF Recovery Procedures

*1. Controls - RELEASE, FEET OFF RUDDERS, SPEEDBRAKE IN

[bushwacker]

thanks for the reply and info.

i was mainly interested in using rudder for small corrections when landing on the moving carriers. i can bring her down, but seems like i'm all over the place when I try to last second correct. maybe i'm just hamfisting the stick. it just feels like a little kick of the rudder would put me down the center better, especially with the crowded Nimitz deck!

[SpazSinbad]

Sorry, no can do rudder in carrier landings. Yes the rudders could be used in the circuit but not on a carrier approach.

A land circuit will perhaps have crosswinds so rudder is useful. Carrier landings have no crosswind although it may feel like it because the ship is moving away all the time taking the centreline away from you so you have to nibble to the right all the time to stay on centreline of the angle deck. One has to fly as accurately as possible all the time down final on a carrier approach. There is no drifting to get to the correct touchdown point or centreline. One has to be on glideslope, on speed on centreline all the time. There is no substitute. Otherwise it will all go bad at the end. Forget about using the rudders for carrier landings. 

You need to make large corrections further out and if you are close or on the parameters as described then smaller corrections are needed. Any last minute correction of any magnitude near the ramp/deck should be minimal to say the least. Anticipating corrections required is part of how you are learning to fly so accurately. There is nothing like it except perhaps precision Ground Controlled Approaches by radar to a landing at weather minimums (or CCAs to carrier). Carrier landings require all the precision you can muster to be on glideslope, centreline (remember to cross the wake to starboard so that you line up straight away on the angle deck centreline) and on Optimum Angle of Attack (flying an airspeed is not really the method because the airspeed will change according to all up weight at the time for Optimum Angle of Attack - that does not vary). Also fly with about 30% or less total fuel. Flying at max. All Up Weight or over makes for a crash. For one thing your airspeed (at Optimum) may be over the limit for an arrested landing. Thus there is a crash.

Being off the centreline and deviating away from that centreline at touchdown is usually crashworthy. Remember to start on the centreline of the angle deck as close as you can and stay there by small right wing down to move over to the centreline as it moves away from you. If you are deviating from the three criteria then move back - don't wait. Make smaller adjustments the closer you get to arrest. Good luck. 

[wilycoyote4]

Many thanks, SpazSinbad, learned much from your post.

[SUBS17]

Excerpt from the Super Hornet NATOPS (sorry don't have Hornet NATOPS) may help explain how rudder is really only effective in very slow IAS (and at circuit speeds) instances and otherwise not so effective or limited in high speed flight:

"Some traditional directional control capability is returned at low airspeed and high AOA only when
the pilot applies lateral stick and rudder in the same direction. This feature starts becoming effective
only at airspeeds below approximately 225 KCAS and above 20° AOA but is most effective at
approximately 120 KCAS and 34° AOA. Enabling this feature outside of these conditions would
compromise departure resistance. When this feature is enabled, the sum of lateral stick and rudder
pedal command is no longer limited to a value equal to a full lateral stick input. The excess roll
command is fed to the directional axis to command sideslip. For example, adding full rudder pedal with
a full lateral stick input provides a maximum roll and yaw command. Alternatively, adding lateral stick
to an existing full rudder pedal input has the same effect. The resulting aircraft motion is a highly
controllable nose-high to nose-low reversal.

At high airspeeds, symmetric rudder deflection is reduced and the rudders are toed in to avoid
exceeding vertical tail structural limits.

Thats how to execute the Pirouette which is a preprogrammed manouver that the Superhornet can execute(F/A-18 A/B/C/D do not have this feature). The pirouette is used during ACM to do very tight turns at low speed. Its modeled on the VRS superhornet.

[SpazSinbad]

bushwhacker, I'll just repeat this here for information about carrier landings. On other threads there are more pointers about carrier landings and of course on the web by googling you can find more current information / stories about Hornet carrier landings:

"Other threads on this topic exist here on this forum. My advice would be to practice your landings on a regular airfield using the devices there for glideslope as indicated in that marvellous FSX Blue Angels explanatory video. Terrific work by all concerned. The video states that it is all 'practice, practice and more practice' (or words to that effect). I cannot recommend this video enough - it is an excellent tutorial. Once downloaded go to your internet cache to save the .FLV video about 115Mbs to your file system so it can be watched over and over if need be.

http://fsxblueangels.com/videoscreen%20ok3.html

Doing FCLP ashore takes some of the distraction away so that you can concentrate on some parts and then take that skill to the carrier. If you set up the strongest wind (35 knots) and have it going straight down your runway, without any turbulence, then this can simulate the carrier conditions; without the pressure of the ship. Practice your control of the aircraft in the landing configuration at a few thousand feet so that you get a chance to learn what it will be flying like with the trim well set. Then the power controls your rate of descent, power always needs to be added to maintain optimum angle of attack in a level turn etc. IMHO carrier landings would be the most difficult achievement in FSX - but of course others may differ. 

This thread is more about carrier landings than 'brake problems':"

http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=1645.0

[bushwacker]

thanks again for the info spazdinbad,

i guess in this case two out of three IS bad! I get glideslope, speed, but occassionally my lineup if BAD. I always assume I can save it at the end, but i usually end up a flaming oil spot!! always thought, if only i had a little rudder

will work on trying to get it right, further out.

I have watched that video, great stuff. I have practiced, hour after hour after hour. I feel confident about landing, just not very polished though. something tells me, if there were a greenie board, i'd be crawling around the bottom.

no rudder on landing....so it was pilot error all along!    who would've thunk it!

thanks for the input.

[SpazSinbad]

BushWhacker (great tag), I'm glad you are having fun. Agree get your line up correct as far out as possible. Crossing the wake (if you are doing a carrier circuit) is essential to be able to line up on the angled deck (on the right of the wake of the carrier which is only a 'lineup for the axial deck') early. Otherwise the problem of liningup on the wake at first, then having to get over a long way to the right, just compounds the other two issues you have to deal with. Have fun & no rudders. BTW at last second over ramp, if you are slightly off the centreline (and I mean only slightly) but otherwise parallel with the angle deck centreline, then you should be able to arrest OK without crashing (all other things being OK). Making the 'over the ramp last millisecond correction' often is the crash cause, especially if rudder is used. No rudder - but I said that.

[SpazSinbad]

Bushwacker, rereading your post I noticed this: "I get glideslope, speed, but occassionally my lineup if BAD." You may have meant to say 'Angle of Attack at Optimum' but have substituted 'speed' instead. You may think I'm being picky but I can understand how 'Optimum Angle of Attack' is a new concept for most pilots not trained for or in Naval Aviation where the use of OAoA is its life.

Please check the video and or read posts about "Optimum Angle of Attack". It is really important. A naval aircraft has been designed to land at OAoA and nothing more or less. The attitude must be correct for hook to ramp clearance for one thing. If you fly a large aircraft onto a small deck then flying the meatball correctly but a higher angle of attack above optimum (ie. slower airspeed) the attitude of the aircraft puts the hook lower with potential to catch the ramp instead of a wire. Conversely landing at a lesser AoA (too fast for the aircraft weight) the hook is raised and may miss the wires altogether even though you have landed in the arrest zone.

The most critical issue with OAoA is that given the Max. AuW for landing then there is a max. airspeed to do this at - this is critical for NOT breaking the arrestor gear or the aircraft when arresting or whatever. Just flying any old airspeed is not good enough. I hope that is clear. For an authentic carrier landing experience then OAoA is the only way.

I don't quibble about starting out at an airfield flying an airspeed that you may see that will get you close to the OAoA for that particular weight. But it will not be acceptable at the carrier particularly if you get that 'airspeed' wrong at either end of the parameters (too fast or too slow). Naval Aviation lives and breathes this 'Optimum Angle of Attack' approach.

[SpazSinbad]

Being used to non-HUD naval aircraft I don't really look at it that much but I'm aware I need to learn how to use the useful features it has. With that said I'm looking at the AoA Indexer to the left of the HUD which shows OAoA with the Orange doughnut, with Green Chevron pointing down showing TOO SLOW (too high an AoA) with the down arrow telling me to 'lower the nose to get back to OAoA. Reverse for the RED UP Chevron (Too Fast so raise nose and of course most likely reduce power etc.). This indexer is only useful when the hook is DOWN otherwise it flashes making the indexer unusable for FCLP without the hook down. I live with that issue.

[From same NATOPS situation about hook/AoA Indexer and how behaviour can be changed for FCLP:
HOOK BYPASS Switch.
The HOOK BYPASS switch, located on the lower left main instrument panel, is spring loaded to the CARRIER position and is electrically held in the FIELD position.
FIELD Approach lights and AOA indexers do not flash regardless of hook position. The switch reverts to the CARRIER position if the hook is lowered.
CARRIER Approach lights and AOA indexers flash if the hook is not down"
&
"Angle Of Attack Indexer. The angle of attack indexer is mounted to the left of the HUD. It displays approach angle of attack (AOA) with lighted symbols; corresponding AOA indications are shown on the HUD. The indexer operates with the landing gear down and weight off the gear. The lighted symbol(s) flash if the arresting hook is up and the hook bypass switch, on the left vertical panel, is in CARRIER. The symbols will not flash with the arresting hook up and the hook bypass switch in FIELD. The switch is solenoid held to FIELD and automatically goes to CARRIER
when the arresting hook is lowered or aircraft power is removed."]

To show that yes I'm learning about the HUD here is text and diagram from Super Hornet NATOPS (apologies I have not got hold of a Hornet NATOPS yet) I'm hoping that the HUD is similar:

"HUD landing symbology. When any two landing gear are down, the Mach number, g, and peak
g are deleted and an AOA bracket, extended horizon bar, waterline symbol, and energy caret appear.
The center of the AOA bracket represents the optimum approach AOA. The bracket moves lower
with respect to the velocity vector as AOA increases and moves higher as AOA decreases. When the
energy state of the aircraft is in equilibrium, the energy caret points to the "right wing" of the
velocity vector and the aircraft neither accelerates or decelerates. With an energy deficit, the energy
caret moves lower with respect to the velocity vector and the aircraft decelerates; with excess energy,
the energy caret moves higher and the aircraft accelerates."

[SpazSinbad]

AoA Indexer shown at OPTIMUM in the FSX Hornet - fuel is about 34% total and altitude is as shown with a down component - these factors will change the OAoA [which is constant but that the IAS or power required for steady state at OAoA at a particular weight will change]. Next graphic is from the Super Hornet NATOPS showing the AoA indexer symbology mentioned above.

[SUBS17]

I think you can also control yaw on the Hornet with the throttles using the split throttle and FSX supports split throttles.

[SpazSinbad]

Subs17, that is a good point but I wonder how the aircraft will compensate via computer? Unless there is an emergency why would one want to do that?