Author Topic: Dissappering A330-200  (Read 7856 times)

Deltalpha

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Dissappering A330-200
« on: June 01, 2009, 11:10:56 pm »
French plane lost over Atlantic
"An Air France plane carrying 228 people from Brazil to France has gone missing over the Atlantic.

Paris Charles de Gaulle airport said contact was lost with the flight from Rio de Janeiro at 0600 GMT.

Brazil's air force confirmed the plane was missing and said a search and rescue mission was under way near the island of Fernando de Noronha.

An airport official told AFP the Airbus 330-200 had been expected to arrive in Paris at 1110 local time (0910 GMT).

Another official said it was possible that the plane had a transponder problem but this was very rare.

"We are very worried," he said, quoted by AFP news agency. "The plane disappeared from the screens several hours ago."

Flight AF 447 left Rio at 1900 local time (2200 GMT) on Sunday. It had 216 passengers and 12 crew on board, including three pilots.

Airport authorities have set up a crisis centre at Charles de Gaulle."

Dimon

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Re: Dissappering A330-200
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2009, 01:58:01 am »
Thank you bud for the information. Internet is very expensive nowadays and people cannot afford to read news' websites.
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wideloadwhitford

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Re: Dissappering A330-200
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2009, 03:43:27 am »
Thank you bud for the information. Internet is very expensive nowadays and people cannot afford to read news' websites.

haha
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CX 747-400

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Re: Dissappering A330-200
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2009, 05:34:21 am »
This is a tragic event for all. My thoughts and prayers go out to all of the friends and family that are affected.    :'(
Jonathan

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Silverbird

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Re: Dissappering A330-200
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2009, 02:53:35 pm »
I'm gonna say over here also, I mentioned over and at the projectopensky forum, I don't like that fact that plane is being controlled by electric servo motors I  don't know if there are backup motors but if the plane suffers a total electric failure that's it your history its not like the old days were you pull that cable and the plane will move.
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wideloadwhitford

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Re: Dissappering A330-200
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2009, 07:59:33 pm »
I'm gonna say over here also, I mentioned over and at the projectopensky forum, I don't like that fact that plane is being controlled by electric servo motors I  don't know if there are backup motors but if the plane suffers a total electric failure that's it your history its not like the old days were you pull that cable and the plane will move.

I think they have backup flight control system that's manual, that's what CNN was saying, but hey they know about as much aviation as newborns.
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newmanix

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Re: Dissappering A330-200
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2009, 10:17:02 pm »
Thinking back to a time when airplanes used to be controlled by pulleys and hydraulic levers. Even my damn car is drive by wire...

God bless all souls onboard.

bradl

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Re: Dissappering A330-200
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2009, 12:15:24 am »
I don't think this is a FBW issue, nor anything near an Airbus v. Boeing war. why? From the forums at FlightAware:

Quote
Air France Jet May have Encountered 100 mph Updrafts

AccuWeather.com meteorologists have done extensive research into the weather that may have affected the Air France Airbus A330 Sunday evening. It is believed that the plane flew into thunderstorms, and the updrafts or turbulence associated with those storms in addition to lightning may have played a role.

The projected flight path of flight 447 took the aircraft near Sao Luis, Brazil, where it may have first encountered a thunderstorm. Later in the flight, the plane appears to have flown into or near a large cluster thunderstorms that were in the development stages northeast of Fernando De Noronha, which is located off Brazil's northern coast, and along the Intertropical Convergence Zone (ITCZ), the belt of low pressure that surrounds the Earth at the equator.

Based on weather information from Fernando De Noronha, the updrafts associated with the thunderstorms may have reached up to 100 mph. Such an updraft would lead to severe turbulence for any aircraft. In addition, the storms were towering up to 50,000 feet and would have been producing lightning. The Air France plane would have encountered these stormy conditions, which could have resulted in either some structural failure or electrical failure as noted in the communications between the Airplane and Air France headquarters.

Based on satellite information, the Air France flight had little chance of going around the storms given that they stretched for over 400 miles and were developing along the flight path. The airplane was flying at cruising altitude of 35,000 feet. With the updrafts pushing the storms up to 50,000 feet, the plane had to fly through the storms and not over them.

Despite the presence of the storms Sunday evening, the only lightning detected along the flight path was near Sao Luis, Brazil. Lightning strikes were not being detected with the storms northeast of Fernando De Noronha and along the ITCZ at the time.

According to Brazilian aviation officials, wreckage that has been found in the Atlantic Ocean about 400 miles off the northern coast of Brazil could be from the Air France aircraft. The debris sighted includes metallic objects and plane seats. This wreckage still hasn't been confirmed as being part of the Air France jet.

Tropical thunderstorms and the lightning patterns generated by them are different from storms that typically occur over the United States. Studies have shown that the top region of tropical thunderstorms is highly charged and more conducive to lightning, which indicates that an airplane flying near the top of a tropical thunderstorm could be more susceptible to a lightning strike. Tropical thunderstorms are also notorious for producing frequent cloud-to-cloud, as well as cloud-to-air lightning.

Crossing that with a map of the weather during the flight from the BBC, and you have a completely different story than something going wrong electrically in the A330. That strong of an up/downdraft could break apart any plane, Boeing/Airbus/otherwise. They couldn't fly over it (IIRC, the A330 has a ceiling of FL390) as the storms were at FL500, so they could only go through it, or turn back.

Keep in mind that similar happened with CAL611 (B742) on its last revenue generating flight. That crash was due to metal fatigue, but it did break apart in mid air, and we know that a B742 definitely isn't FBW.

BL.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2009, 12:28:25 am by bradl »

newmanix

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Re: Dissappering A330-200
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2009, 06:48:35 pm »
Update: There are claims that the wreckage found is not that of the AF flight... Some parts just turned out to be "sea garbage".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090605/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/brazil_plane;_ylt=Avihkhz37kn2Ma0ZSILDHtGCfNdF

Cheers.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 06:51:39 pm by newmanix »

Silverbird

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Re: Dissappering A330-200
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2009, 08:54:13 pm »
Update: There are claims that the wreckage found is not that of the AF flight... Some parts just turned out to be "sea garbage".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090605/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/brazil_plane;_ylt=Avihkhz37kn2Ma0ZSILDHtGCfNdF

Cheers.

Yea just read about cant believe it was just garbage I really hope they find out what happened over there. wideloadwhitford, your right I think they do have a back up to control the plane.
Cesar

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Deltalpha

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Re: Dissappering A330-200
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2009, 04:20:56 pm »
"Brazil: Bodies found near jet crash site


NBC: U.S. Navy is sending locator devices to find black boxes in wreckage

NBC News and news services
updated 9:33 p.m. CT, Sat., June 6, 2009

PARIS - Searchers found two bodies and a briefcase containing a ticket for Air France Flight 447 in the Atlantic Ocean close to where the jetliner is believed to have crashed, a Brazil military official said Saturday.

The U.S. Navy is sending two "pinger locators" to aid in the deep sea search for the "black box" from the ill-fated flight, U.S. officials told NBC News. The U.S. officials said the locators will be towed behind two French tug boats that are en route to the site. The listening devices can detect signals from a pinger at 20,000 feet, nearly four miles, beneath the ocean's surface.

A U.S. Navy team of about 20 will accompany the pinger locators, which will be flown by commercial air to Brazil on Monday.

The French agency investigating the disaster, meanwhile, said airspeed instruments on the plane were not replaced as the maker recommended before it disappeared in turbulent weather nearly a week ago.

Air France acknowledged on Saturday that speed monitors on Airbus planes have proven faulty, icing up at high altitude, and that recommendations to change them were first made in September 2007. Air France said it began replacing the monitors on the Airbus A330 model on April 27.

The French accident investigation agency, BEA, found the doomed plane received inconsistent airspeed readings by different instruments as it struggled in a massive thunderstorm on its flight with 228 people aboard.

Airbus had recommended to all its airline customers that they replace speed-measuring instruments known as Pitot tubes on the A330, the model used for Flight 447, said Paul-Louis Arslanian, the head of the agency.

"They hadn't yet been replaced" on the plane that crashed, said Alain Bouillard, head of the French investigation. Air France declined immediate comment.

Arslanian of the BEA cautioned that it is too early to draw conclusions about the role of Pitot tubes in the crash, saying that "it does not mean that without replacing the Pitots that the A330 was dangerous."

He told a news conference at the agency's headquarters, near Paris that the crash of Flight 447 also does not mean similar plane models are unsafe, adding that he told family members not to worry about flying.

Airbus had made the recommendation for "a number of reasons," he said.

Recovery of bodies, ticket
The two male bodies were recovered Saturday morning about 45 miles south of where Air Flight 447 emitted its last signals — roughly 400 miles northeast of the Fernando de Noronha islands off Brazil's northern coast.

One recovered body was still strapped in the seat with a boarding card for Flight 447, according to NBC News reports.

Brazilian air force spokesman Col. Jorge Amaral said an Air France ticket was also found inside a leather briefcase.

"It was confirmed with Air France that the ticket number corresponds to a passenger on the flight," he said.

Brazilian authorities refused to comment on how the discovery of the bodies may affect the search for crucial black box flight recorders that could tell investigators why the jet crashed.

The investigation is increasingly focused on whether external instruments may have iced over, confusing speed sensors and leading computers to set the plane's speed too fast or slow — a potentially deadly mistake in severe turbulence.

Pitot tubes, protruding from the wing or fuselage of a plane, feed airspeed sensors and are heated to prevent icing. A blocked or malfunctioning Pitot tube could cause an airspeed sensor to work incorrectly and cause the computer controlling the plane to accelerate or decelerate in a potentially dangerous fashion.

Air France has already replaced the Pitots on another Airbus model, the 320, after its pilots reported similar problems with the instrument, according to an Air France air safety report filed by pilots in January and obtained by The Associated Press.

24 messages
The report followed an incident in which an Air France flight from Tokyo to Paris reported problems with its airspeed indicators similar to those believed to have been encountered by Flight 447. In that case, the Pitot tubes were found to have been blocked by ice.


"Following similar problems frequently encountered on the A320 fleet, preventative actions have already been decided and applied," the safety report says. The Pitots on all Air France's A320s were retrofitted with new Pitots "less susceptible to these weather conditions."

The same report says Air France decided to increase the inspection frequency for its A330 and A340 jets' Pitot tubes, but that it had been waiting for a recommendation from Airbus before installing new Pitots.

As they try to locate the wreckage, investigators are relying on 24 messages the plane sent automatically during the last minutes of the flight.

The signals show the plane's autopilot was not on, officials said, but it was not clear if the autopilot had been switched off by the pilots or had stopped working because it received conflicting airspeed readings.

The flight disappeared nearly four hours after takeoff, killing all on board. It was Air France's deadliest plane crash and the world's worst commercial air accident since 2001.

The head of France's weather forecasting agency, Alain Ratier, said weather conditions at the time of the flight were not exceptional for the time of the year and region, which is known for violent stormy weather.


Advisory memo
On Thursday, European plane maker Airbus sent an advisory to all operators of the A330 reminding them of how to handle the plane in conditions similar to those experienced by Flight 447.

Peter Goelz, a former managing director of the National Transportation Safety Board, said that advisory and the Air France memo about replacing flight-speed instruments "certainly raises questions about whether the Pitot tubes, which are critical to the pilot's understanding of what's going on, were operating effectively."

Arslanian said it is vital to locate a small beacon called a "pinger" that should be attached to the cockpit voice and data recorders, now presumed to be deep in the Atlantic.

"We have no guarantee that the pinger is attached to the recorders," he said.

Holding up a pinger in the palm of his hand, he said: "This is what we are looking for in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean."

Currents could have scattered debris far along the ocean floor, he said.

President Barack Obama said at a news conference with French President Nicolas Sarkozy Saturday that the United States had authorized all of the U.S. government's resources to help investigate the crash.

Arslanian said U.S. forces have lent the inquiry acoustic systems, which will be fitted to two naval vessels. That is in addition to France's Emeraude submarine and the high-tech equipment being send to the region by French marine research institute Ifremer.

France's submarine, to arrive next week, will try to detect signals from the black boxes, said military spokesman Christophe Prazuck.



NBC News' Jim Miklaswezski contributed to this report from The Associated Press.
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31137068/



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newmanix

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Re: Dissappering A330-200
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2009, 07:09:12 pm »
They REALLY need to recover the FDR. Without it, other A330's could be in trouble. Remember the QF incident with the A330 last year? Maybe this incident is similar without the crew being to recover over the storm.