Author Topic: JFK Scenery Load and Pause  (Read 6826 times)

alpha3

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JFK Scenery Load and Pause
« on: June 24, 2015, 08:58:41 am »
Loves FSDT's work ... I have KIAH, KLAX, and KJFKv2. Not a single problem with the first two. But, with JFK, the delayed "all at once" load of the airport and the associated 1-2 second pause is not acceptable. I've read all the background so I know why the developer did what they did. Question - For those of us running high-end systems on FSX:SE, OOMs are not much of an issue. Is it possible to issue a patch or v3 that loads jfk with the surrounding scenery? My VAS is nowhere near maxed in the vicinity, so I (and others) might be able to handle it. Otherwise, I can't use the scenery with pausing like that. Does v1 also load in the same way?

virtuali

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Re: JFK Scenery Load and Pause
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2015, 10:52:53 am »
If you are referring to the initial loading, you cannot say you "can't use" the scenery with that pause, since it only happens once.

If you are referring, instead, to subsequent loading pauses that happens when loading objects with a smaller range of the scenery, you can control them using the Addon Manager "Anti-pop up" setting, that will increase loading range for smaller objects, up to a maximum of the overall loading range of the scenery.

As explained other times in the forum, the JFK overall loading range has been selected carefully to be sure JFK and LGA are not loaded together. Normally, an FSDT loading range is from 10 to 16 NM, that's why you think there's no "problem" at KLAX or KIAH, it's just they load earlier, but the pause is there too, and I think it's even longer for KLAX. You just don't notice it.

But since JFK and LGA are very close together, JFK loading range is about 7 NM, so you notice it more. VAS it's just ONE of the reasons we don't want to load JFK and LGA together. The other is FRAME RATE, so users won't be mislead that JFK is the cause of their fps loss, when in fact it's the fact it's loaded together with default LGA and most likely other fps AND VAS-heavy products many users have in the area, like Aerosoft Manhattan.

So no, the loading range is correct for this area and it's working as intended.

We might add some kind of an UNOFFICIAL and UNSUPPORTED tweak, to increase the loading range, but keep in mind you are the first one that asked for it or said he "cannot use the scenery". Everybody else that asked for an explanation about the shorter than usual loading range at JFK, agreed with our choice once it has been explained.

alpha3

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Re: JFK Scenery Load and Pause
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2015, 07:46:05 am »
So I tested each airport very closely and this is what I found:

KIAH - A loading and visual masterpiece. Reminds me of how the latest Flightbeam and Taxi2Gate airports load. It appeared to be staggered as I monitored with zoom from 28nm out until touchdown. There was absolutely no hint of a pause/load at anytime. Really well done airport.

KLAX - At 15.9nm out there is the slightest (~0.25s) pause that likely wouldn't be noticeable if I wasn't watching for it. But as I monitored from afar, this one seems to dump the whole airport at once unlike KIAH or other developer sceneries. But overall, very good.

KJFK - A wreck. At approx. 7nm out the entire sim comes to a screeching halt for almost 2s. Yikes. The entire ground base turns white and then I painstakingly watch the whole airport dump at once. Sorry, that is not a flyable airport/approach in my opinion. Departures only.

Loading the airport in quarters or eights depending on distance seems like much more appealing and much less noticeable (staggered) way to go. I know other developers do it and it appears you've done something similar with KIAH.

However, if maybe you could tinker with KJFK and release an "at your own risk" version that would load at a further distance? ... And *maybe* even stagger the load if possible? Wow, that would be great because it really is a well done piece of scenery.

Thanks for your response and I look forward to your next creation!





virtuali

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Re: JFK Scenery Load and Pause
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2015, 11:06:24 am »
KIAH - A loading and visual masterpiece. Reminds me of how the latest Flightbeam and Taxi2Gate airports load.

With relationship to loading, since Flightbeam also uses our Addon Manager / Couatl modules, their loading strategy it's identical to our own. KIAH has a loading range of 11.0 NM, so it's more similar to Flightbeam KSFO and KPHX (both loading ranges are 10NM), rather than KIAD (16.0 NM) or KDEN (20.0 NM)

It doesn't have anything to do with Taxi2Gate airports, that don't have any loading strategy: since the scenery is a regular .BGL, they don't have any control on the loading range, which is done entirely by FSX itself.

Want to know

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KLAX - At 15.9nm out there is the slightest (~0.25s) pause that likely wouldn't be noticeable if I wasn't watching for it. But as I monitored from afar, this one seems to dump the whole airport at once unlike KIAH or other developer sceneries. But overall, very good.

KLAX has a loading range of 16.0 NM, and it loads exactly like KIAH. Other developers sceneries comparisons are not relevant, except Flightbeam so, in this regard, KLAX is identical to KIAD, when loading strategies are concerned.

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KJFK - A wreck. At approx. 7nm out the entire sim comes to a screeching halt for almost 2s. Yikes. The entire ground base turns white and then I painstakingly watch the whole airport dump at once. Sorry, that is not a flyable airport/approach in my opinion

KJFK loading range is correct for all the reasons already explained above. And nobody ever complained being "not flyable"

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Loading the airport in quarters or eights depending on distance seems like much more appealing and much less noticeable (staggered) way to go. I know other developers do it and it appears you've done something similar with KIAH.

Other developers (if with "other developers" you mean anybody else except Flightbeam), don't have any means to control their loading range, because the FSX SDK and the .BGL format doesn't have any way to specify the loading range of an object UNLESS they use the old FS8/FS9 file formats, but in that case the fps penalty will offset any supposed benefit of loading objects later/earlier.

They might play with LODs to have part of objects disappear on distance, but that's NOT a "loading strategy", an object with some empty LODs might *display* later, but it will load and will use VAS at its maximum range that, when using the normal FSX SDK, it's entirely out of control of the scenery developer.

In fact, if with "loading the airport in quarters/eights", this is EXACTLY what WE do already. Provided the "Anti pop-up" slider in the Addon Manager is set to its default value.

- If the Anti Pop-up slider is set to its default value of 1, the airport will load the most important buildings at the overall loading range, and the smaller/detail objects at several different loading ranges (usually from 0.5 to 1NM) depending on their size and type. This will result in MORE pauses, of a SHORTER duration. And, usually, the best fps.

- If the Anti Pop-up slider is set to an higher value (for example at the maximum), EVERYTHING will load at the overall loading range of the airport. This will result in A SINGLE, LONGER pause.

But it's not so easy. The time FSX takes to load scenery objects is NOT the same. It depends how taxed your system is in the scenery area. At JFK, since the surrounding area is already very heavy and with many different objects from the default scenery, so the time it takes to load KJFK is not the same to load KIAH, which resides in a very fps-friendly area.

But as I've said, if we just enlarged the KJFK loading range, so it will load much earlier like the others, in THIS area it will cause lots of issues BOTH with fps AND VAS usage, due to the very close proximity of other large airport like LGA and EWR, the high-detailed Manhattan area and the overall N.Y. scenery, which is very dense even without any add-ons, but will be much worse if you have more detailed than default products, like vector data add-ons.

That's why we cannot just set JFK at 16.0NM and forget about it, that's why the 7.0 NM loading range is correct, and that's why you are mislead into thinking KIAH has somewhat "better" loading strategy, when in fact it's just resides in a more favorable area, that allows faster loading, and we can't do anything about it.

alpha3

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Re: JFK Scenery Load and Pause
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2015, 05:52:14 am »
Thanks. Very informative. Can I ask again for a KJFK *beta* that would move the airport load out to ~16nm? Please? One other thing also: Why are the terminal spotlights not 3d modeled?  I believe this is the only airport of yours where I haven't seen this done.

Thanks again.

virtuali

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Re: JFK Scenery Load and Pause
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2015, 08:42:35 am »
Thanks. Very informative. Can I ask again for a KJFK *beta* that would move the airport load out to ~16nm? Please?

As I've said:we might add some kind of an UNOFFICIAL and UNSUPPORTED tweak, to increase the loading range. But keep in mind that, this kind of tweak won't magically result in JFK loading faster, just EARLIER.

In fact, it's even possible that, by loading earlier, the pause might last longer, because at 16 NM out ( depending on the direction of approach ), the memory usage of the rest of the area would cause the same objects to be loaded slower.

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One other thing also: Why are the terminal spotlights not 3d modeled?  I believe this is the only airport of yours where I haven't seen this done.

It's the only airport of ours of those you tried...many others don't have them. Not all airports are made the same, quite simply.

And *everything* not essential in JFK is kept to a minimum for performance reasons because in 2008, when we made it, most people (even other developers) thought that doing JFK in FSX was "impossible", it started like some kind of a joke...and ended up being our best selling scenery.