Author Topic: f-18 hud waterline  (Read 52837 times)

Sludge

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Re: f-18 hud waterline
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2009, 10:37:56 pm »
SUBS...

I hope so, would love to get a SuperBug with most of bells and whistles.  I remember the DiD SuperHornet too.  Would like to see moving and animated deck crew too, but with FSX, I wouldnt count on it, or it would have to be thoroughly reprogrammed to be flexible and interactive the way FSX is inherently NOT.

I dont know if the NWS is switchable between lo/hi or even able to disengage.  I'm guessing NOT, since I havent seen anything at all about it.  You know... on an separate note, I bet some of the spin outs on land runways that other forums talk about might be associated with this somehow?  Might be something that is tweakable/reduceable in some .cfg program or another?

BTW, not that I'm a naval aviator, I did go thru Navy Primary in NAS Corpus but didnt make it (puker)... but wow, alot of people in their stories and youtube videos DONT know how to carrier land.  They aim straight to the back of the boat, using the wake as a straight in line-up (disregarding crossing the wake and lining up on the angled deck), and then muscle the f-18 straight down and reduce power and flare just over the fantail.  I think if most people out there would read some basics of naval aviation, ie. flying the aoa, line-up on the angle deck, and POWERED DESCENTS... they would have alot more success.

Laterz
Sludge

Doum76

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Re: f-18 hud waterline
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2009, 11:25:12 pm »
I think for this f-18 fsx model, I would be happy with some of the upgrades talked about, because they are a possibilty without having to know how to completely rewrite code.  I mean, if someone with as limited skill as myself can find the KBT SuperHornet HUD files, read some boards, try out the ideas and make them work, and explain how I did it to the public, then anybody can.  On top of that, you throw in a modder like DOUM, who is good enough to rewrite some .xml files and experiment, that opens up a whole nother can of whup ass on modding.
Other than that, I guess we will have to wait for the VRS SuperHornet for FSX for those upgrade mod monsters like FBW or hopefully a carrier ILS with highly realistic HUD with all the bells and whistles.  I guess its supposed to be FSX-centric with alot of the upgraded realisms we want or talk about, but we will see when it comes out.

Anyway, thanks for trying DOUM... that would be nice to get the steer cues and ACLS to work, but sometimes, as modders, we dont win.  Been a great week though, with plenty of success in my book!


Well ma, i think indeed that's it for now, i've fooling around with the Tapdole and the FPM moving around, no joy. Way too much to understand about that, i've been able to make it less sensitive but in flight it has been afected as well. So let's wait VRS.
Laterz
Sludge

Doum76

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Re: f-18 hud waterline
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2009, 11:36:32 pm »
BTW, not that I'm a naval aviator, I did go thru Navy Primary in NAS Corpus but didnt make it (puker)... but wow, alot of people in their stories and youtube videos DONT know how to carrier land.  They aim straight to the back of the boat, using the wake as a straight in line-up (disregarding crossing the wake and lining up on the angled deck), and then muscle the f-18 straight down and reduce power and flare just over the fantail.  I think if most people out there would read some basics of naval aviation, ie. flying the aoa, line-up on the angle deck, and POWERED DESCENTS... they would have alot more success.

Laterz
Sludge

Crap, sorry you haven't made, at least you had a try  ;D, that was my dream since i was 5 yrs old i was caring more about planes than cars, was doing modeling of aricraft rather than cars as most kids my age, i had a crush for all what was military aircraft, but even before i had to try out, my darn flat foot made me not even dare tried. :(

As for the carrier landings, i think most people don't care in FSX, most people you see on Utuve takes FSX as a simple videogame, the faster they land on the carrier, the best run they made as for they are concerned, they don'T care much about the real pattern stuff or even handling the aircraft, i'Ve even seen a chain there that people where doing competition who lands fastest, 29 seconds was the fastest, but try to imagine what the pattern was, even start going downwind on starbord side and aiming the deck at deck lvl to grab 1 cable.

I'm one of the rare ones that never been affiliated with real aviation or military stuff that cares about flying in FSX as it would be in real life, if i wanna play a game, i get on my PS3, you can ask Spaz how many questions i asked, how much stuff/info he provided me, and more than all, how much readings i've made on the web to learn how to control, pilot the Hornet, how things are done, and took me about a month to be able to get used to it, and get carrier landings done. I'm far from perfection, but as you can see in this video, ain't that bad for a .xml modder wanna bee.  :P



But do not take a lok at my Aerosoft F-16 second landing. it's a pain to master for me as well.

SpazSinbad

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Re: f-18 hud waterline
« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2009, 01:17:00 am »
To me it is interesting that there is a lot of enthusiasm to fix the 'bugs' in the HORNET FSX and also to do better carrier landings. I think Doum76 does very well on both counts.  ;D

I'm not in the aircraft for the carrier landing - to me the START is lined up left (not enough crossing the wake) but after that things get on track for a good landing. The video comments says a MIL PWR touchdown which may not be correct otherwise (depending on when MIL PWR is selected) there would be a catastrophe. Perhaps MIL PWR was at touchdown which is standard procedure for hitting the deck (arrest or not - then bolter) go to MIL PWR and when obviously coming to a stop during arrest then idle power.

So the only 'quibble' with that carrier landing is the lineup at start. Otherwise nicely flown. There may be different opinions on it but to me the effort was there to get onto being precise early and there was a good result. I saw the video without sound - so don't know the wire taken.

ADDITION: Was able to watch video again with sound. Caught No.1 wire which is alright if the power is coming ON. The LSO comments I think "lined up right" at start in debrief; which is true, once the real approach starts - but before that just before and just after the 'ball call' the aircraft is motoring across to the right to stop being lined up left - then goes past angle deck centreline to be "lined up right" etc. Still and all - with errors - there was a quick response to get back to what is required and that is the way to do it - with a good result. With always a good effort to stick with the Optimum Angle of Attack that is good to see. BZ. [Naval slang for 'well done'.]  ;D
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 01:34:59 am by SpazSinbad »
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SUBS17

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Re: f-18 hud waterline
« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2009, 08:53:19 am »
SUBS...

I hope so, would love to get a SuperBug with most of bells and whistles.  I remember the DiD SuperHornet too.  Would like to see moving and animated deck crew too, but with FSX, I wouldnt count on it, or it would have to be thoroughly reprogrammed to be flexible and interactive the way FSX is inherently NOT.

I dont know if the NWS is switchable between lo/hi or even able to disengage.  I'm guessing NOT, since I havent seen anything at all about it.  You know... on an separate note, I bet some of the spin outs on land runways that other forums talk about might be associated with this somehow?  Might be something that is tweakable/reduceable in some .cfg program or another?


Laterz
Sludge

Deck crew is a possibility for FSX since it supports animated people though it would require the sim to be played as a mission in order for those options to work. The hand signals can be found in the NATOps manual although I think its procedures are better suited for VRS superhornet than for the FSX acceleraion one. But the engine startup is quite similar for both aircraft ideally this would go well with a combat mod in MP.

SUBS17

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Re: f-18 hud waterline
« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2009, 09:23:34 am »



But do not take a lok at my Aerosoft F-16 second landing. it's a pain to master for me as well.


Nice landing but to land the F-16 you need to do 2 things 1st is to flare until the FPM is at the far end of the runway at 100ft and 2nd thing is once on the ground pull back on the stick to place the guncross on the 10degree pitch line to aero brake the aircraft until at least the nose drops about 100kts and then engage NWS about 70kts. You can rapidly deccelerate by combining airbrakes, aerobrake and wheel brakes but IRL if you just use wheel brakes and speed brake to stop you risk burning the brakes out. Not sure if this stuff is modelled in this addon or not. BTW I wonder if departure is modeled you could give that MPO switch a try(overide) 8)

Doum76

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Re: f-18 hud waterline
« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2009, 03:23:11 pm »
To me it is interesting that there is a lot of enthusiasm to fix the 'bugs' in the HORNET FSX and also to do better carrier landings. I think Doum76 does very well on both counts.  ;D

The Hornet ain't really bug, just need more reallistic touch ups, but that only few freaks like us care, i gotta admit i love the Hornet, that's what made me get into all this, graphicly stil impressive. But more reallistic addons sure is welcomes. BTW leads me to ask this questions, as for flight dynamic, how the Hornet is handled etc.. is it a bit close to how the Real Hornet reacts?

or the carrier landings, i did tried to get better, but as always my line ups for some reason are my major problem, either on carrier or land, and since the new HUD, i'm having a hard tieme doing carrier landings, trying to figure out what affects this.... For Lands, i'm getting better but it's kinda cheaping now with the E Bracket, Tapdole and Vertical Velocity Vector, makes all easier on land, as for carrier, still wil ned to get back to that, since i'm done with the file fooling around for now.  ;)

I'm pretty sure if i would had been a character in TopGun movie i wouldn't had been Goose, but GooseBumps, for all the shivers i would give people on carrier when landing.  ::)

Doum76

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Re: f-18 hud waterline
« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2009, 03:29:33 pm »
Nose Wheel steering Lo and Hi modes, with Lo it moves like a normal NWS for an aircraft in Hi mode it will turn well beyond the normal limits to allow the hornet to manouvre on the deck of the carrier.

Only things i'Ve found so far is inside the «...Microsoft Flight Simulator X/SimObjects/Airplanes/FA-18/Panel/FA18_HUD_VC/FA18_HUD_VC.xml»

There is a section with NWS, but hw we can set it up on and off no idea, how it affects the wheel no idea, all it says it's how it's been triggered.

If i understand right, NWS is triggered by: Wheel on ground, Gear down, center wheel rpm reaches 100 knots.
NWS HI:  onon ground, Gear down, GROUND VELOCITY (Knots) reaches 15

But might only be to make the text appear on the HUD and does nothing else.


Doum76

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Re: f-18 hud waterline
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2009, 03:41:44 pm »

Nice landing but to land the F-16 you need to do 2 things 1st is to flare until the FPM is at the far end of the runway at 100ft and 2nd thing is once on the ground pull back on the stick to place the guncross on the 10degree pitch line to aero brake the aircraft until at least the nose drops about 100kts and then engage NWS about 70kts. You can rapidly deccelerate by combining airbrakes, aerobrake and wheel brakes but IRL if you just use wheel brakes and speed brake to stop you risk burning the brakes out. Not sure if this stuff is modelled in this addon or not. BTW I wonder if departure is modeled you could give that MPO switch a try(overide) 8)

For the NWS not sure if it's moddled, i'll have tor ead some aprt of themanual again, but i don't rememebr seing anything about it, on the other hand, keeping the nose up on landing to aero brake until reaching about 80 knots, that i remember reading it, but, was it on a forum or manual, i try to do it, but i let stick go too fast. But for the procedure about the FPM up to the end pf runway is sure of an help.

Only problem, i don't know if it's like that for real F-16 or the model (getting answers on their forum seems as tough as to get a picture taken with Humpty Dumpty) but getting the optimum  donut with AoA Bracket and ILS bars still visible  on a decent Rate of descent is pretty tough to achieve, the Bracket and ILS bars tend to go away bellow the HUD and when little thrust is add to make them appear back or have a decent rate of descend, the donuts change easily to show your too fast, the donut might lack accuracy, i  know the optimum angle is 13 deg, but can't remember the min that will get the donut to fadein a too fast chevron.

Another stupid questions, while looking at the replays, i'Ve realised that the little fin underneath the fuselage, between the nozle and the back landing gears (same fin there is on both outtake fuselage on the Tomcat) seems to be a lvl showing the right AoA, the nozle, the fine line and the back landing gears seems to get lvl line when optimum angle is obtain, what really is those little fin?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 03:46:19 pm by Doum76 »

SpazSinbad

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Re: f-18 hud waterline
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2009, 04:07:02 pm »
Doum76, probably only a Hornet pilot can comment on the flying characteristics of the model in FSX. I would presume someone has given it the OK (OK for sim) where there have been many compromises. Worrying about how realistic the sim is is not worthwhile if there is nothing to compare it too. Certainly the Hornet does not fly like a 747. In older FlightSims often the homemade military jets were made to fly like the Lear Jet. OK for some but not realistic. FSX Hornet is not a Lear Jet.

As for line up on the carrier. Draw a diagram. Have a look at the several diagrams in this forum. The angle deck is approximately ten degrees different to the axial heading of the ship. I could give numbers for how much offset this will mean when you are 1.5 Nm from touchdown on the carrier but I know you can work it out also.

When you catapult you can note the catapult heading then turn down wind at 30 degree angle of bank to the reciprocal heading and then add ten degrees more to port to be downwind for the angle deck. Do you follow? OR you can go downwind on the reciprical catapult heading but when you turn base you should turn at a lesser angle of bank, at say 27 degrees? Why? Because if you go downwind on reciprocal heading to catapult (axial deck hdg) then steadily you will be ten degrees off to stbd flying away from the carrier, rather than directly parallel to the angle deck. All this does not matter a lot if you fly downwind close to the correct distance from the ship (whatever that is - once again look at the NATOPS carrier circuit diagrams in this forum).

Even though a former Hornet pilot says to turn on the instruments, he would not be doing that as though he is instrument flying (in cloud). He would be referring to the instruments more often than usual but doing visual flying; whilst keeping an excellent lookout and also looking at the carrier to get feedback about position to turn base at correct distance downwind etc. He will be looking at the ship during the turn but also doing the turn by the book so to speak - so that the aircraft is close to ideal position when rolling wings level 'at the start', lining up correctly, having crossed the wake by a sufficient amount. This is why you need to make your own diagram, to get clear in your mind how much offset that is. Draw a straight line down the angle deck to approx. 1.5NM and measure the distance at that point to a similar distance but straight down the axial deck. It is quite a significant lateral difference - no?

Anyway all this takes practice. There is no other way. No magical formula except 'meatball, line up and airspeed' - "glideslope, line up and Optimum Angle of Attack". Personally I like to keep it simple. As mentioned before I find the HUD distracting. To me it is only good for altitude and heading information. Otherwise the rest of the wobbly bits are ignored. When 'at the start' all is ignored except mentioned because the AoA is to the left of the HUD, while I can see the line up and the mirror in front. This is when the left metal support bracket for the HUD gets in the way, if you are lined up correctly. Anyway that support bracket can be made transparent perhaps?   ;D  This is where a Full Screen HUD with room for the AoA indexer to be in view would be very handy; but of course the metal bracket would still be there; but perhaps less intrusive, depending on whatever.

I'll repeat. Landing this aircraft on a runway is easy compared to landing on a carrier. OK? There are many sim limitations to how a carrier landing can be achieved. To me the worst drawback is that the mirror and other ship cues such as lineup, cannot be seen at a sufficient distance; so too much guesswork is required at the start. For similar reasons experienced carrier pilots start their wings level approach much closer to the ship. Why? Because things are clearer up close and the less time in the groove means less time to make mistakes. So I'm told.  ;D  Several real online HUD Hornet videos have a very short finals from base turn but this is not showing off - this is realistic. Of course the finals can be too short and if so the LSO will wave you off.

Practice practice practice. Practicing FCLP is good for getting some aspects such as lineup correct from a good base turn position. However ensure that the wind is straight down the runway for FCLP. That is another smaller factor for carrier circuits (wind is down angle deck) and remember that if the carrier is moving then the centreline is moving to the right away from you all the time. 'Nibble' to the right to keep correct lineup - this is unavoidable. Always be in the perfect position and if not then get back to it pronto. There is no drifting to be lined up at touch down or some other method. Be perfect as you can be - all the way.
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SpazSinbad

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Re: f-18 hud waterline
« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2009, 04:41:51 pm »
I've been working on the A4G/RAN FAA PDFs, recently all updated, making more info pages for carrier landings explanations (amongst much new additions & subtractions). Below is onesuch. In meantime the website with 7GBs of PDFs and some video has two PDFs with same information about carrier landings in general and A4G in particular in both. One PDF is much smaller at 1.86GB rather than larger 4.4GB PDF. Smaller has ONLY A4G info, larger has that and more about the Skyhawks in general and the other RAN FAA Jet aircraft. The page/website has also an RAN A4G LSO logbook showing the chicken scratches made by the LSO before he jumps into the safety net:

http://www.a4ghistory.com/ (all downloads free - please use download manager or right click to 'save as' method)

Now attached is the distance criteria that LSO uses for describing an approach.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 04:58:25 pm by SpazSinbad »
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crim3

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Re: f-18 hud waterline
« Reply #56 on: September 18, 2009, 05:33:18 pm »
That's great info, virtuali, thanks! It seems then it will be kind of hard to make a collimated HUD in the sim unless you can read the current eye position. A conformal HUD however will be easier to make for a fixed eyepoint. I guess that's what Chrisitan was implying.
As far as I know, usually it's done placing the HUD simbology rendering surface several meters in front of the glass surface and rescale accordingly. The second option is, as you said, moving the simbology as the eye position moves (that's how is done in Black Shark). This second method doesn't work well when running in stereo-3D, but it's the same in monoscopic.

Sludge

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Re: f-18 hud waterline
« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2009, 07:33:26 pm »
Doum...

I'm pretty sure the lower fins are for stabilization on the F-16.  Kinda funny how you noticed that for your purposes of landing the jet.

Dont worry about the rough landings on the carrier, they are tough as it is, thats just the nature of the beast.  My best advice would be to install the NAS El Centro airfield scenery add-on, then practice what's in fsxblueangels video "ok, 3", in the middle of the video they show Field Carrier Landing Practice and are using El Centro, if I'm not mistaken.  This will help you with the FCLP pattern work (ie, getting to 600' Above Ground Level, then dirtying up and setting your trim for the proper on-speed AoA).  As well as reading the FCLP practice pictures in the SuperHornet HUD package, in the Misc files/pictures/vidoes folder.  It will come with time, my friend... trust me!

Also, in the HUD control panel, you can cycle thru the declutter switch, so you only have a few essentials, for carrier landing that might help with your visuals when you are on final.  Give that a whirl, and see if that helps.  Have you guys (DOUM, SPAZ, SUBS) had any success with the FULL SCREEN HUD as well?  I really havent used it at all, since I first tried it.  Dont care for it, myself.  Just wondering what your impressions are.

All in all, I'm pretty happy with how this last week went.  We seemed to make a big jump for the default F-18 Hornet that makes it alot of fun to fly.  I take this thing alot from MCAS Miramar over to Luke AFB, just so I can transition from day to dusk, and then have to use the nav-aids and the HUD to do spot-on approaches.  This F-18 is alot more fun, once you get it tweaked a bit.

Laterz
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SUBS17

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Re: f-18 hud waterline
« Reply #58 on: September 18, 2009, 10:13:19 pm »
Nose Wheel steering Lo and Hi modes, with Lo it moves like a normal NWS for an aircraft in Hi mode it will turn well beyond the normal limits to allow the hornet to manouvre on the deck of the carrier.

Only things i'Ve found so far is inside the «...Microsoft Flight Simulator X/SimObjects/Airplanes/FA-18/Panel/FA18_HUD_VC/FA18_HUD_VC.xml»

There is a section with NWS, but hw we can set it up on and off no idea, how it affects the wheel no idea, all it says it's how it's been triggered.

If i understand right, NWS is triggered by: Wheel on ground, Gear down, center wheel rpm reaches 100 knots.
NWS HI:  onon ground, Gear down, GROUND VELOCITY (Knots) reaches 15

But might only be to make the text appear on the HUD and does nothing else.



Yeah that might require a mod to make something like that as it would be a feature added that would require the feature to be turnned on so for example you would use a button such as cowl open to switch NWS on or off then you might use cowl close to switch NWS mode Hi or Lo and Hi might equal 90degrees NWS limit where as Lo might equal NWS limit of 45 degrees. Ideally you would need the Hornet manual to make it exactly as it should be or ask around.

SUBS17

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Re: f-18 hud waterline
« Reply #59 on: September 18, 2009, 10:43:32 pm »

For the NWS not sure if it's moddled, i'll have tor ead some aprt of themanual again, but i don't rememebr seing anything about it, on the other hand, keeping the nose up on landing to aero brake until reaching about 80 knots, that i remember reading it, but, was it on a forum or manual, i try to do it, but i let stick go too fast. But for the procedure about the FPM up to the end pf runway is sure of an help.

Only problem, i don't know if it's like that for real F-16 or the model (getting answers on their forum seems as tough as to get a picture taken with Humpty Dumpty) but getting the optimum  donut with AoA Bracket and ILS bars still visible  on a decent Rate of descent is pretty tough to achieve, the Bracket and ILS bars tend to go away bellow the HUD and when little thrust is add to make them appear back or have a decent rate of descend, the donuts change easily to show your too fast, the donut might lack accuracy, i  know the optimum angle is 13 deg, but can't remember the min that will get the donut to fadein a too fast chevron.

Another stupid questions, while looking at the replays, i'Ve realised that the little fin underneath the fuselage, between the nozle and the back landing gears (same fin there is on both outtake fuselage on the Tomcat) seems to be a lvl showing the right AoA, the nozle, the fine line and the back landing gears seems to get lvl line when optimum angle is obtain, what really is those little fin?

Yeah it depends I don't know how close the addon is compared to Falcon4s aircraft which is the closest to a real F-16 especially Open Falcon. The one we use most often is Falcon 4 Allied Forces but along with that I also use the original F4 manual which has alot of stuff that relates to the aircrafts basics like landings and departure recovery. With F4AFs HUD its in 2d and the FPM does not disappear when on finals but in F4AFs the aircrafts AoA is influenced by the aircrafts weight so a heavier weight means a higher landing speed in order to maintain the ideal AoA so just placing the FPM inside the bracket is all I do I never bother with the donut for me its just the bracket followed by a flare and then aerobrake. I don't look at the fin either just the Hud. ;D
If you want to learn more about F-16s and fly them online then I suggest you buy Falcon 4 allied Forces which will teach you the basics and then move up to Open Falcon. Some good manuals to read Dash 34, USAF manual and the MLU tapes 1 and 2 all of this stuff is used in F4AF and open falcon.

Not all landings are good ones in MP it can be quite embarrassing.

And sometimes you get good landings, landing with battle damage is the most difficult especially if you have damaged ailerons etc.
Roads can be a bit dodgy.(LOMAC)