Author Topic: is LAX more stable on the new P3D 2.3 Then it is on FSX  (Read 6576 times)

cowings1588

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is LAX more stable on the new P3D 2.3 Then it is on FSX
« on: August 29, 2014, 07:22:28 am »
Is KLAX more stable on the new P3D 2.3 then it is on FSX.. I have no outside scenery at all for LAX area, I had only dept & arrival LAX turned on with all others turned off inside FSX & even though I didn't actually get the OOM error I still had the chime sound off as though I was approaching getting the OOM error after landing at KLAX from FSDT.. I even had HD turned off & still got the chime..

So my question is with the new P3D 2.3 that's suppose to be more stable now since previous versions anyone with P3D 2.3 & KLAX  is it more stable with no chimes & able to land in LAX with no issues ??

Just wondering & curious
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Bill

virtuali

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Re: is LAX more stable on the new P3D 2.3 Then it is on FSX
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2014, 09:26:31 am »
KLAX is perfectly stable on FSX too.

As discussed many times already when OOM have been reported, it's never the scenery causing an OOM, it's the combination of *everything* you are running at a certain time: the airplane used, AIs, every scenery used including mesh, vector scenery, and of course the airport too. They all compete for the limited 4GB absolute maximum memory limit that FSX and P3D, as 32 bit apps, can use.

What has been proven to be the most memory consuming items, are some 3rd party airplanes: some of them might take up to 1.0GB of RAM for themselves (the exact amount depends if you use DX9 or DX10), while a detailed airport like KLAX is about one quarter of that size. Here's a post with some measurements, showing that KLAX is the less impacting add-on, when memory is concerned:

http://www.fsdreamteam.com/forum/index.php/topic,7285.msg62471.html#msg62471

Some memory savings can be obtained in FSX by using DX10 (KLAX is 100% compatible with it), because under DX9, part of the allocated VRAM is mapped into system RAM, while on DX10 this doesn't happen. So, the first advantage of using P3D, is there's no DX9 there, so you will get some memory saving automatically.

Another P3D "advantage", is that a popular memory-hungry airplane brand is not available yet on it, which means P3D users have far less changes to experience OOMs, at least for a while...but P3D by itself takes more RAM than FSX, so there's chance that, when that popular airplane brand will be available on it, users will start reporting OOMs there too, and will come here for help, asking why "KLAX has become less stable, recently"...

cowings1588

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Re: is LAX more stable on the new P3D 2.3 Then it is on FSX
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2014, 08:38:55 am »
Well I know I turned everything off within FSX except for Dept Airport which was KDEN from Flightbeam which also made KDEN real OOM friendly, I was using QWings 757 with no outside scenery at either DEN area or LAX area only the 2 airport sceneries were being used..

All other addon airports within FSX had been unchecked & turned off so anything I was flying over wouldn't get counted in..

Like I had said before in another forum or on FB to someone is that I had the HD turned off apparently in both KDEN & KLAX the HD was on off when I checked it under addon screen.. Even though I didn't get the actual OOM message I still got the chime you get just before getting the message which means I way too close to the 4gb allowance..

I'm not trying to say KLAX is totally at fault but at the same time if I had all the other addon's turned off & I was using Qualitywings 757 which shouldn't be as bad on the virtual as pmdg is with it I hear, I should of never even gotten the chimes when on the ground at LAX..

No outside addon scenery for the area just your airport scenery & departure Flightbeam DEN scenery were only 2 airports active at the time, everything else turned off.. all my traffic boats & etc are at very low level of 20 %, No Traffic turned on at the airport from default ground traffic from FSX.. All that is turned off because I use GSX anyway.. So I am really surprised I even got the chime even..  Really trying to figure out a way to be able to fly into & use your wonderful scenery on FSX. It seems for me anyway my only problem child for the OOM issue in a big way is whenever I go to LAX.. I don't have this issue as bad at the other airports that you made that I own..

I forgot to mention I use DX9 I guess, I don't use DX 10 because I never did get that DX10 fixer before they took it off the market.. 
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 08:55:00 am by cowings1588 »
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Bill

virtuali

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Re: is LAX more stable on the new P3D 2.3 Then it is on FSX
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2014, 08:05:56 pm »
ìI'm not trying to say KLAX is totally at fault but at the same time if I had all the other addon's turned off & I was using Qualitywings 757 which shouldn't be as bad on the virtual as pmdg is with it I hear, I should of never even gotten the chimes when on the ground at LAX...

You are giving the "turning everything unused off, except what I use" too much credit for being memory saving. Turning off everything not related to your flight, will JUST save a very small amount of memory, which is wasted by the not-so-smart FSX memory handling, which sometimes forgets to reclaim memory from far away sceneries.

But that's nothing compared to the memory you consume in the area you ARE using, with your settings. It's wrong saying "No outside addon scenery for the area just your airport scenery", because when you are on any given place, FSX don't load JUST the 3rd party airport addon you are referring to, but is loading the background scenery, ( vector, meshes and textures ) for that area, it's loading AI, your airplane, the road traffic for all roads nearby.

For example, saying "20% road traffic" doesn't mean much, if you don't take into account a 3rd party addon that added more roads detail, like UTX or the Orbx vector data. Obviously, you can't expect that 20% road traffic on 100 roads on the default scenery, would take the same amount of memory that 20% road traffic over 1000 roads that you have because you improved the roads detail with some kind of add-on.

That is to say, NOTHING is free, you pay each and every single eye-candy you add with increased memory requirements, so it's can't blame any single addon you have in the area you ARE flying ( forget the other unused thing you turned off, because they don't save that much ), because EVERY single one will eat memory, and the memory consumption is heavily influenced by your settings.

I already pointed you out the result of my measurements about how much memory KLAX really requires, clearly demonstrating it's not the single biggest contributor on a typical setup. If you heard the FSUIPC sound alert, it means you were well past the 3.5GB total allocation, and that's a LOT more than I measured in my test, which means your setting are just too high, for combination of add-ons YOU use.

Again, for the last time, not a single add-on is every responsible for OOMs, KLAX is not a scenery known to be particularly memory hungry, and I think I provided enough data to prove it, so you simply must choose between one of these options:

- Lower your settings

- Use DX10. You don't need the DX10 fixer with our more recent sceneries (KLAX included), because they are already fully compatible out of the box with it.

- Use 2048 or 1024 texture size.

- Don't use so many add-ons at the same time.

- Use P3D, which runs in DX11 only, and there's no "popular memory hungry airplane", at least not yet...

Any of these (or a combination of them) is valid so, you have options.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 08:09:27 pm by virtuali »

cowings1588

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Re: is LAX more stable on the new P3D 2.3 Then it is on FSX
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2014, 01:51:58 am »
Thanks for the info Umberto, also I thought that I did have the traffic, the leisure boats & such @ 20 % but when I just went on checked I forgot I guess I had turned them all off already so non of them were on of course I turn off the airport traffic seeing I don't want the default tractors & such seeing I use your GSX so all that is turned off..

I just switch back over to DX 10 so hopefully I should have no issues departing LAX now on my way back home to Houston..

Thanks again for the info & your help..
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 03:21:57 am by cowings1588 »
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Bill

cowings1588

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Re: is LAX more stable on the new P3D 2.3 Then it is on FSX
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2014, 03:28:20 am »
Also just so you know, as of yet I do not own the power hungry PMDG as of yet..

The airplanes I do have are as follows

Ifly 737 - This makes up my 737 fleet

Aerosoft Airbus Extended current version 320/321 soon to be 319 whenever Aerosoft releases it

Wilco & Feelthere ERJ's 135,145,145XR & EMB jets 170/175

Qualitywings 757 & when they release probably will be getting the 787

Captainsim 767

This is my current fleet & companies that made them as of right now..
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Bill

virtuali

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Re: is LAX more stable on the new P3D 2.3 Then it is on FSX
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2014, 08:00:59 am »
Quote
Thanks for the info Umberto, also I thought that I did have the traffic, the leisure boats & such @ 20 % but when I just went on checked I forgot I guess I had turned them all off already so non of them were on of course

That's precisely the reason why I started my explanation about road traffic with "For example". I never meant that I thought the road traffic was contributing to the problem in YOUR case. I only indicated it as an example of a slider setting that doesn't tell much, unless you don't take into account what add-ons are running in your area.

Another EXAMPLE: discussing the Autogen density, if you don't take into account what Landclass you have installed, doesn't tell much, because the memory used WILL change, depending on all these factors:

- Which Landclasses are displayed ( I hope you don't expect that a desert class will affect the sim like a forest or a city )

- How many different types are displayed in an area, the more varied areas will require more memory than one with less variations.

- How the autogen files are made for those Landclasses. Addon products might come with more detailed/dense autogen files, so the number of autogen trees/houses, etc. can change quite a bit. That's affects memory, of course.

- What vector product you use. The more roads, coastlines, lakes, shores, etc, are featured, the more *different* textures FSX will have to generate, because FSX creates textures on the fly, by combining the landclass texture with the vector data so, the more detailed the vector data is, the less chances FSX has to reuse a texture it just made for that area, which will result, of course, in more memory taken.

That was JUST the Landclass/Autogen part, to indicate that things are not so simple, and how the popular myth that "Landclasses don't impact performances", is very misleading. Yes, you might not see a big fps impact (except when playing with the autogen slider), because once textures are created and uploaded on the video card, they are rendered very fast. But the act of creating them, made by FSX with the CPU, WILL use different amount of memory, depending how the underlying scenery is made.

I won't even go into AI settings and how their different schedules, combined with the airport used and the variety of liveries loaded at any single moment, will affect memory usage. Yes, of course, nobody thinks about this, but an airport that is visited by lots of different airlines ( like...KLAX... ) WILL attract many DIFFERENT AI liveries, while an an airport which is not an international hub, but rather the hub of a specific company like AA, United, Delta, etc, will result in AI traffic taking different memory, even on the same Traffic settings, and even on the same actual number of airplanes displayed. Even the different number of airplane *models* will affect this. If you have 20 737s parked, maybe all of the same airline, it's NOT the same has having 20 different models for 20 different airlines. And it won't even the same at all time of day and days of the week, because of their schedule!

This is of course even worse in DX9, because the more textures are being created, the more VRAM is copied into RAM first, increasing the chances for OOMs, THAT'S why using DX10 is effective when trying to save RAM.

Those were just EXAMPLES, to show how complex the matter is, and how it's IMPOSSIBLE to say something like this post subject, which you title "Is KLAX mode stable ?", as if KLAX has something specific to this. The correct way of seeing things, should have been "Will my installation will be more stable in the Los Angeles area under P3D ?"

I'll repeat it again:

I already pointed you out the result of my measurements about how much memory KLAX really requires, clearly demonstrating it's not the single biggest contributor on a typical setup. If you heard the FSUIPC sound alert, it means you were well past the 3.5GB total allocation, and that's a LOT more than I measured in my test, which means your setting are just too high, for combination of add-ons YOU use.

Also just so you know, as of yet I do not own the power hungry PMDG as of yet..

That's precisely the reason why I haven't specifically indicated it as being the one and only cause of high memory usage. Sure there are many others memory-hungry airplanes. What makes an airplane "memory-hungry" is not really the airplane code for system simulation ( unless is very badly programmed ), the most memory consuming items in an airplane, it's the number or animations in the external model or in the VC, so any airplane with lots of them will take lots of memory.