Where is the AI traffic in JFK?

[papalimabravo]

Hi fsdreamteam
I've just purchased the fantastic KJFK scenery and I'm wandering where the AI fsx's traffic is gone! No planes even when the traffic parameters are up to 90%. Do you think its normal? I'm running under XP SP2 and FSX acceleration pack. I've not seen any messages of that in the forum. Thanks a lot for your answer and keep your good work!
Phil

[virtuali]

No planes even when the traffic parameters are up to 90%. Do you think its normal? I'm running under XP SP2 and FSX acceleration pack. I've not seen any messages of that in the forum

It's not normal. It's impossible to help you if you don't say which AI package you are using.

If you are using the default, check the whole airport, some AI might be parked in the cargo area, because FSX default AI do not have an airline assignment, and all gates at KJFK are flagged as ramp GA, to get rid of the default ground vehicles, which slows down the fps and often spawn inside the buildings. If you use an AI package with real airlines, this is not an issue, because those always flagged with an airline name, so they are able to find their preferred parking in any case.

[Catchman86]

I am having a similar issue at JFK and am using UT. For some reason, I also have no traffic at LGA (payware) now that I have installed JFK. Great product, I just need some jets! 

[Catchman86]

I just noticed that if I start off at JFK with good weather (non-framerate intensive) in a default aircraft, things are fine. I took off, changed the weather to current (ifr), and flew the pattern. On approach, the frequencies for 4L and 4R wouldn't work properly. As I landed, all Commerical AI traffic suddenly disappeared.

[papalimabravo]

Thanks for your quick answer!
Concerning AI traffic in FSX I'm using simply the default traffic. If we wait for a long time some few airplanes appears (3 or 4 thats not too much!) even when all the traffic cursors are in maximum position. Also I've purchased this excellent addon "follow me" which doesn't work with your JFK scenery... can you light up my cockpit? thanks again Umberto for your help!
Phil

[Catchman86]

I've now noticed that I can hear atc talking to aircraft and I think I might be seeing nav lights. Any idea how to fix this? I don't have this problem at any other airport including your ORD.

[costone]

I had this similar issue and a fresh reinstall of JFK fixed it. Check your FSX/SimObjects/Airplanes folder also and make sure your AI files are all accurately accounted for. if you also have an 'Aircraft' folder under FSX then check that it only contains the default FSX aircraft.

[Brian S]

In FSX, within the settings/aircraft section, make sure that the "Aircraft casts shadows on ground" button is unchecked.  Restart, and your AI traffic will be visible. Has to do with the AI aircraft not being DX10 and FSX compliant. 

[Catchman86]

Wow. After spending ~10 hours trying to solve it this weekend and assuming a coding issues in the traffic files on my part, it turned out to be the aircraft shadows on the ground.
sssummer, I bow to your superior knowledge.

[Brian S]

I try.    Glad I could help.  This is a problem with all truly FSX modeled airports such as FSDreamteam's KJFK.  Since it has taken years to make the models for AI traffic in the payware and freeware community (Aardvark, Fruit Stand, AI Malcontent, etc), no one has wanted to start over and build DX10/FSX compliant aircraft.  The result is that aircraft will disappear (in FSX compliant addons) or may just show up as white or black (no paint) in DX10 mode.  Hopefully, in FS11, the modelers (gasp) will start over.  Yikes.  It's a tall order, that's for sure. 

[whicker]

I try.    Glad I could help.  This is a problem with all truly FSX modeled airports such as FSDreamteam's KJFK.  Since it has taken years to make the models for AI traffic in the payware and freeware community (Aardvark, Fruit Stand, AI Malcontent, etc), no one has wanted to start over and build DX10/FSX compliant aircraft.  The result is that aircraft will disappear (in FSX compliant addons) or may just show up as white or black (no paint) in DX10 mode.  Hopefully, in FS11, the modelers (gasp) will start over.  Yikes.  It's a tall order, that's for sure. 

Not 100 percent correct.

If the problem was truly a FSX modeled airport then FSX itself would have the problem everywhere. The aircraft cast shadows issue started when SP2 was introduced. SP2 cannot tolerate any type backward code in a addon airport scenery vs AI Planes that are modeled for FS2002/FS2004.

Example, a FSX airport scenery that has some SCASM code or used the FS9 BGLCompiler to compile certain model.mdl buildings is understood as backward compatibility because the FSX model.mdl compiles .mdl's differently. If the User has the original FSX or FSX/SP1 then cast shadows is not a problem with AI Plane textures vs the addon scenery that has backward code.

Only when Accelerator or stand alone SP2 is installed you now lose the AI plane textures (AI becomes invisible) due to the addon airport scenery and not due to something that is compliant. If the default KPHL or KBOS is FSX and cast shadows on aircraft works fine there then when I get to KJFK that is addon scenery and compliant the cast shadows will continue to work there also. To say "The result is that aircraft will disappear (in FSX compliant addons)" is a contradiction when AI are visible at the default KBOS and not visible at the addon scenery of KJFK.   

This is why some Users see a problem with AI not showing up and some do not. The AI Plane is actually there but just invisible when it spawns in the Active Visual Zone (which can affect other airports as well, KLGA). This also has nothing to do with the DX10 preview mode which if the addon airport is 100 percent FSX to begin with then the FS2002/2004 AI Planes are visible but the textures are white or gray (based on video card types) on some planes only.

Having some backward compiled code (SCASM or FS9 BGLComp) embedded in a FSX scenery is not all that bad but it should be tested for FPS issues, rendering of the ground textures and stated somewhere that cast shadows Must Be off for AI to be visible if the user has installed Acceleration or a stand alone SP2. Studies also show that some backward code will work just fine at one FSX addon airport but that same type code will not work at a airport halfway around the world or even 200 miles down the road.   

When we point out to ACES that airport scenery and its related code has changed between the SP1 and the SP2 they do not have a answer except to say

Interesting. Note that this has nothing to do with the SDK itself. Something must have changed in the runtime

When certain code was written in SP2 it changed many parts of FSX/SP1 such as the built-in flatten that no longer exist with a runway, pushback tug behavior that moves very slowly and side to side, the increased radius of a User plane in a pushback turn, backward compatible code that works in one part of the world but not the other, issues with airport boundary fences, default aircraft nav lights embedded into the wings and of course the AI planes that are invisible (cast shadows on) when backward code exist in the Visual Zone sector.

Different design teams in ACES knows about all these issues in SP2 (now) but can only say to the 3rd party developers to go forward and not backward in their design efforts. Even the AI Planes that have been developed in the last few months are still FS2002/2004 and not FSX. The designers continue to use the wrong Wingspan and Empty Weight values which affects what runway ATC assigns and what parking spot the plane parks in regardless of how well FSDT designs the scenery or lays out the aircraft flyable/ground behavior.

The tall order you speak of is not on the shoulders of ACES (they know what they have to fix) but all those backward compatible issues still being used by individual 3rd party design groups.

Jack

 

[Alessandro]

In JFK was not used scasm code. Only FS9 BGLCompiler code for the taxi and apron detail (ground poly), all the rest is FSX code.

Regards.

[virtuali]

I was to saying the same thing as Alessandro: the SCASM code (we liberally use the term "SCASM" code, but in fact, we should say "FS2002 SDK code") that cause the disappearance of FS9 AI airplanes in FSX, it's not any SCASM code. It's a specific instruction to create stand-alone runway lights without a runway, that allow to create fully customized runways that do not show any of the default textures or markings.

We used this method only for Zurich (which has a runway with a very peculiar appearance), KORD and KFJK both use an hybrid approach of default texture+custom details and markers, so there's no SCASM code for the runways, just to not having this AI issue, that at Zurich was cured by turning off the airplane shadow when using FS9 AI models.

So, either there's something else that cause that problem, or these AI were made differently. I, for example, can see AI at JFK with their shadows on.

A question: were you using DX9 or DX10 ?

As a side note: I've got word from Justflight the upcoming version of their Traffic X package, is specifically designed for FSX+SP2 and DX10

[papalimabravo]

I couldn't imagine this subject was so technical! Very interesting to read your answers, I'm using FSX acceleration pack, directX 9 upgraded and the default fsx traffic and still a quite empty JFK airport where some 3 or 4 rare birds are present. What can we do with that? Does a solution exist?

[virtuali]

the default fsx traffic and still a quite empty JFK airport where some 3 or 4 rare birds are present. What can we do with that?

This is an entirely different thing, that doesn't have any relationship with the issue discussed, which is AI present but invisible (you can hear them on the ATC, but not seeing them, unless you turn airplane shadows off).

Using the default traffic, you probably have the impression of an empty airport because, as explained previously, the AI that do not have any airline assignement (or have fictional airlines, like the default ones), park by preference in the Cargo areas before that in the Parking areas. And, at JFK, parkings are flagged as Parking area instead of Gate, to get rid of the default ground vehicles, because the scenery features custom ground vehicles.

So, if you check better the airport, you should probably see more than 3-4 airplanes, because most of those are located in the peripheral areas of the airport.

Of course, with a proper AI package installed, all models have their airline tag, so they'll park at their right places. So, the use of a traffic package is strongly suggested. Also because MS default airplanes used for AI have exactly the same models when used as user-driven airplane, which is simply too nice for AI use, and impact fps too much. With a traffic package with models especially optimized for AI use, you might have way for traffic density, for the same fps.